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Thanks, Aves

Here is Production Voices - Concert Grand - Gluck-Sgambati: Melody in Dm

Thank you wolfgangmeister for your Pianoteq demos.
So many nuances in sound, resonances, overtones etc that make it breathing...

Couldn't resist and just upgraded Pianoteq Stage to Standard.

Thank you for uploading this, Embertone all the way for me.

Thank you for those recordings, they indeed sound very beautiful. I would have expected to be disappointed by the CFX sound but it turns out I actually enjoy those recordings quite a bit. As some other commenters said, I, too, have become a bit disappointed in the Garritan CFX lately - it feels pretty cold and lifeless to me after spending some time with a couple of Steinways. That's why I was surprised to see that the classical recordings could still convince me. Even though the Embertone recordings did have a very beautiful and sweet tone to them. I still can't get past the Embertone's flaws though. The notes that stand out and the pretty bad performance still make it unusable to me. I'm hoping that their update will bring some improvements.

As for the Ambisonics mic in the Concert Grand, I don't know why you'd call it useless. To me it's one of the most powerful features. Even as a layman I was able to get some pretty convincing sounds out of merely using the presets. Imagine if someone knew what they're doing, they could shape the sound in ways unimaginable in the piano VST world up to this point. I can understand the frustration about the things that don't work or that need improvement - at the same time, I'd say let's not downplay the good things that this VST actually does have going for itself.

Thanks for the recordings !!
I like the Embertone (much) more than the Garritan, but that has more to do with me and my current feelings towards the CFX right now.....

I’m bit puzzled though that some consider the Embertone a sort of ‘unusable’ in it’s current state.
I’m looking forward to updates but in the mean time i’m enjoying it a lot.

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I think compared to Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D, PV - Concert Grand really shines here:

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Concert Grand

To me hands-down winner.

Yeah I talked about that in the Embertone thread. Some notes are sticking out really badly, and at least one is additionally out of tune. Repedal is advertised as a key feature but is completely missing. There is noise in at least one sample. Additionally I couldn't find a way to make it work without constantly getting clicks and missing notes. Only piano VST that gave me so many performance issues like this was the Bechstein Digital which has insane requirements if you want to crank up all the features. But I am well above the requirements of the Embertone so I shouldn't have any problems. I really want to like this piano because I have come to love its sound, but I just can't enjoy playing it like this. I think I could 'fix' the performance issues with a new PC, but the samples are the way they are and probably won't be fixed. There's enough people who don't mind these issues but to me personally I can't get over them.

The same piece rendered with IMO The Best Yamaha C7 VSTi on the market today - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Thank you Max! I also couldn't resist and upgraded from PianoTeq Stage to Standard. Let me just say that the new Steingraeber & Sohne E-272 Modeled VSTi is one of my personal favorites to play of any sampled or hybrid sampled/model VSTi; and I agree with you that the Standard version's ability to "tweak the sound and move the microphone positions" allows one to really compare it to the latest top of the line sampled instruments.

Note: The advantage for this particular PianoTeq VSTi is that I recorded the Gluck-Sgambati on the E-272 - using a specific velocity "touch response" preset that was developed to best match the advanced WNG carbon-fiber / nylon composite action on my Mason & Hamlin BB acoustic instrument. This was actually the first time I ever "muted" the action for a MIDI recording made by my acoustic using ProRecord - i.e. I used the QuietTime Mute Rail to stop the hammers just shy from striking the strings... so the feedback I was hearing was of the virtual Steingraeber instrument as I recorded the piece. Usually I play the acoustic and the MIDI recording is produced as a result of this dual acoustic performance. I feel the recording came out MUCH better using the virtual Steingraeber.


I also want to thank you Aves for all of your hard work of creating these comparisons!

I agree with slobajudge relative to the Embertone's ability to reproduce the Gluck-Sgambati. Really beautiful tones out of this instrument as compared to Production Voices Concert Grand LE and Garrison CFX Full or even PianoTeq Steinway D. It is a very close second for me to the Steingraeber E-272, and that may have been due to the inexact mapping of the velocity touch response, relative to the original recording. This actually may be the biggest problem I heard with the PV "Steinway D" Concert Grand recording... the touch response seems to be off a bit as the piece crescendos... The Garritan CFX Full was my third favorite and this also surprised me as it was warmer and had more character than I expected from hearing some of the demos.


Thank you pianistje! I definitely agree with you on the Gluck-Sgambati relative to the Embertone tone, BUT, I think the Liszt Orage reveals some of the Embertone's current "playability" deficiencies... without me even playing it... especially with the repedaling and half-pedaling... somehow it is just not right. Notes in the bass are being cut off abruptly, and this does not happen with Garrison CFX, PV Concert Grand LE or with any of the PianoTeq VSTi options. It also doesn't happen when I play it back on my M&H BB Acoustic via PianoDisc SilentDrive HD either!


Thank you Grazilerimba! Relative to your thoughts on touch response (see alternate PianoWorld thread)...
https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...h-one-vst-using-another.html#Post2759649
... you are absolutely right on the money, and I experienced this when I made the Gluck-Sgambati recording. If one could have create equivalent touch responses (using a standard VSTi interface), using a standard MIDI file might be a more effective method of comparing VSTIs.
Relative to your thoughts on the Embertone, agree relative to the sweet tone and (see above) the Embertone's playability flaws are very evident to me in the Liszt Orage, especially with the pedaling (listen at 10 sec, 17 sec, 18 sec, and 21 sec).



Thank you Max for posting both of these Liszt recordings on the PV Concert and Production Grands... and once gain to Aves for posting the many Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D perspectives!

In short, the recordings demonstrate a sense of the power of the Production Voices instruments, and playability of the Garritan... I liked both better than the Embertone Walker Steinway D due to the known re-pedaling shortfall.... BUT... although they sound phenomenal at the posted speeds, I think I recorded them at a TEMPO 25% and 15% slower, respectively, than what got posted here for both Production Voice VSTis and the Garritan/Embertone recordings! The MIDI file I shared should have taken 5:15.8 (or 315.8 sec) to complete. I believe I would be dead right now if I tried to match the phenomenal increased PV 25% lightning pace... or perhaps at the Garritan/Embertone 15% faster pace I feel like the undiscovered protege of the late Vladimir Horowitz! BTW - The sound of the Production Grand surprised me too, I liked it almost as much as the Concert Grand. Any reason why the recordings got sped up? Something wrong or incomplete in the MIDI file? PianoTeq, Aria, Zenph RePerform HD MIDI Editor and VanBasco's all render it similarly. Anyway, I also got a sense of the the two PV instruments by slowing it down without pitch change using Audacity, but this tool unfortunately distorts the sound a bit when you perform this action.

Thanks!

So, for me, I was actually surprised how good the Embertone came out after rendering the file.

The perceived sound while playing consists of an interaction between both the recorded sound of the samples as the playability of the piano. The CFX sounds MUCH better during playing than the Embertone, or even all other VST's I tried, for exactly this reason.

There are a couple of problems with the Embertone:

- Obvious flaws with the pedaling, which are actually not that bad in the recordings of the Gluck pieces, worse in the Orage piece, but somehow when I play it seems to be even worse. Maybe has something to do with the way I'm used to pedaling, but please mind that I have no problems on other VST's (pianoteq/CFX/Vintage D/Grandeur) or any real piano/grand.

- When playing the piano, it feels sometimes like I'm playing 'on felt', little bit like the middle practice pedal on an upright piano. I lose the (mental) connection between playing and the sound output. Most of the times, this is an issue with the dynamic/velocity curves (latency is already very small). However, I still haven't been able to fully correct this (the lack of fine control of the velocity curves in the interface does not help). The middle-lower part of the piano sounds muffled compared to the upper part that sounds quite sharp. The timbre of the sound in different velocity levels changes to much to my taste, in which lower velocities again sound to muffled and higher velocities to bright. Again this possibly has to do with my inabilities to get the velocity and dynamic curves right. All in all it does not feel very 'even', although I'm not an expert as that I can not give any numbers or technical interpretations of this as some users on this forum can.

- Overall lack of 'thunder' or 'body' in the sound of the lower registers. The CFX really shines on this.

I'm really puzzled what the Garritan CFX does which makes it such a playable piano, for me up there with PianoTeq, but I guess even better because of the mentioned interaction between sound and playability.



In hindsight your MIDI file was fine. When I imported the MIDI file in Studio One, I got some weird tempo markings (with tempo of 250-300) and tought maybe the tempo was wrongly interpreted by the software. To be sure I changed the speed of the recording a bit to average the lenghts of the pieces found elsewere.

As far as I know Embertone working hard on update for piano, it is a matter of days, so it will be very interesting to test it after update.

I'm hoping (and i don't think they will) Embertone addresses the attack delay issue when you hit a key. That made the piano completely unplayable for me, it's like i feel like i'm playing with "third party" hands or with gloves, no connection whatsoever because of that delay.

In audio, even if you're playing on 64 buffer, sometimes latency get introduced when you insert effects on your track (limiter, certain reverbs...), that's why it's a rule of thumb not to use third party plugin effects when recording. My concern is that Embertone may have some of those "third-party" effects already baked in the engine.

If they address this issue in the update, then it will be welcomed back to my SSD, because as for now it's out of my computer, moved to an external dead archives drive.

I rendered 88-key chromatic scale with PV - Concert Grand in several velocity levels:

1, 4, 8, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92, 96, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 127

Souncloud link

"Concert Grand" - preset used with bypassed reverb. No other tweaking, processing or loudness adjustments made.

For those who are wondering about different loudness level. Hope this helps.

BTW, Sounds great.

That's an interesting experiment Max Forte, and in those recordings the piano does sound really good. The piano sounds great in general, IMHO. The thing is, those recordings do not adequately portray the issue of the weak upper registers. If you listen really closely, you might hear it to some extent - because the last notes (the higest octave on the piano) are very clear and cut through, but the notes about one or two octaves below that are noticeably weaker. You gotta play the instrument and actually feel the weakened response of the keys while playing chords and melodies that go into those areas and move away from them to really get an idea of this issue. I'm really surprised this isn't clearer in your recordings, would have thought it would be.

Aa for the Embertone, I'm waiting for the update as well. Really curious if they will improve on it. The developers seem to be very responsive to their customers from what I can see.

Is the Soundcloud sound wave diagram an indication, that the volume of the higher notes is indeed lower? The bars are lower in height for the higher notes, than for the low to middle ones, in Max's recordings.

Is it possibly normal that the notes higher in frequency, are automatically lower in volume? Is an acoustic piano like that?

Sorry for all those questions, but I have a few more.

It's positive, that Embertone is responsive to the complaints of their customers, but shouldn't they, or any VSTi producer for that matter, make sure they have a product in decent shape, before releasing it on the free market?

Is it acceptable, that even the biggest names in the field of virtual instruments, are releasing products that look like old trousers, needing stitches here and there?

Are the manufacturers moving their R&D departments to the final customer, thus getting cheap labour for research and development? Well, actually totally free, because VSTis are not going down in price, as far as I can tell.

Yes. The lower the note, the higher the energy needed to achieve the same perceived volume. (though I doubt this relationship is linear across the spectrum). The 'bars' you mention are actally waves whose height represents amplitude, which is energy.

And to add to that ... the higher the note, the higher the energy needed to achieve the same perceived volume.
Our hearing is at its peak at around 1 kHz, and drops off marked above and below.

One more thing that caught my attention. PV's demo at Soundcloud:


SoundCloud: Concert Grand demo track - "Depths Of You by Eric Levy" starting at 1:12


Please, pay attention (starting at 01:12) to incredible real-life resonances. Interference of the sound waves results in chaotic sound reflections of the ringing strings in an unpredictable way! It makes you forget these are samples, not Pianoteq nor the real piano! Every time he presses the keys really hard piano adds different "colors" and tones to the core sound palette. Forty seconds of playing different samples per key: It is more like Pianoteq than the other libraries.

I like it more and more. Best "Steinway" on the VSTi market now.

Thanks to tdwctdwc for his advice to do "Batch-Resave", many issues gone.




Glad I bought it!

I think it's a bit disingenuous to call this the best vsti as this is your opinion and others may not feel as you do. I doubt the playability is on the level of the Garritan CFX or Pianoteq. I have the Concert Grand Compact which is the a subset of Concert Grand LE containing only the side mics. As I mentioned earlier, I find the setup more pop oriented with some unison tuning issues and a very hard attack. In the demos I am also picking up a bit of buzzing here and there. I notice this as well with a few of the samples in CGC. This may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Realize this is a piano that has been dragged around on the road and probably subjected to a lot of swings in terms of temperature and humidity. I would much prefer sampling a piano that has been left in situ in a studio or other controlled surroundings. I get that you are passionate about this library, but I think folks need to listen to demos and grab the Concert Grand Compact demo to try and make up their own mind. For me I'm passing and will look toward the Embertone. Currently I much prefer The Grandeur overall versus PV Concert Grand, but to each his own.

I agree with you whole heartedly on these things, because it makes me mad as well. It is not acceptable and it should not be tolerated. Thing is, sometimes I have reason to doubt that these are calculated moves by the developers. In the case of the Embertone, I'd say it's absolutely borderline fraudulent with advertising features which end up not being in the product. In the case of the Concert Grand, I am not sure what to think. Most of the issues are noticeable by any experienced player using the software for more than five minutes. Why does he invest years of hard work and excrutiating effort only to put it out in this state? What am I supposed to think about that?

Perhaps I am just glad that Embertone will still (claim to) attempt to fix some of their issues because other developers do not care about customer complaints and will either ignore them, or acknowledge them but refuse to fix them, or downright proclaim them a feature. (big-daddy of a tool, anyone?).

As for the Concert Grand being called the best Steinway - I'd think it definitely could have been the best Steinway, but not in this state. I personally think the playability is really good, but those quiet upper registers as well as the broken pedal implementation ruin it.

By the way, I don't understand the line of thinking regarding the state of the grand piano itself. If the quieter keys would be quieter because of not having been used enough (i.e. hammers haven't been cut through?), then why is the highest octave normal again? The highest keys are as crisp and sharp as everything in the, say, lowest four or five octaves. That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would everything else be cut in except those one or two octaves just below the highest octave?

It's one thing to be emotionally and financially invested in something and to then realize that it falls short of the expectations for larger, structural reasons. It's another to be invested only to realize it could very well have been what you have wanted for a long time, and that the things that might have made it work wouldn't have been all that much effort to get right.