Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
118 registered members (amyram, Antihero, Animisha, akc42, Andymania, accordeur, ando, 36251, 26 invisible), 1,524 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 13 of 14 1 2 11 12 13 14
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: wolfgangmeister] #2759611
08/19/18 08:38 AM
08/19/18 08:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 20
The Netherlands
A
Aves Offline
Full Member
Aves  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 20
The Netherlands
wolfgangmeister, I rendered your MIDI files in both the Embertone Steinway D and the Garritan CFX.

https://soundcloud.com/thebirds/sets/embertone-steinway-vs-garritan-cfx

For the Embertone, I made different combinations of all the mic's together with the main mic.
For the CFX, I used both the default settings (with re-pedaling enabled) and my edited version with a bit more 'body' to the sound (some extra saturation, more ambience, more dynamic range).

I will not discuss my preferences and remarks, first I'm curious what you all think. smile
Please vote for your favorite instrument + version.

Last edited by Aves; 08/19/18 08:40 AM.

Kawai VPC1 - Garritan CFX
(ad) SWEETWATER Lowest Prices
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759624
08/19/18 09:35 AM
08/19/18 09:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
M
Max_Forte Offline
Full Member
Max_Forte  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759628
08/19/18 09:58 AM
08/19/18 09:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
M
Max_Forte Offline
Full Member
Max_Forte  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
Thank you wolfgangmeister for your Pianoteq demos.
So many nuances in sound, resonances, overtones etc that make it breathing...

Couldn't resist and just upgraded Pianoteq Stage to Standard.


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Aves] #2759641
08/19/18 11:20 AM
08/19/18 11:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 614
S
slobajudge Offline
500 Post Club Member
slobajudge  Offline
500 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by Aves
wolfgangmeister, I rendered your MIDI files in both the Embertone Steinway D and the Garritan CFX.

https://soundcloud.com/thebirds/sets/embertone-steinway-vs-garritan-cfx

For the Embertone, I made different combinations of all the mic's together with the main mic.
For the CFX, I used both the default settings (with re-pedaling enabled) and my edited version with a bit more 'body' to the sound (some extra saturation, more ambience, more dynamic range).

I will not discuss my preferences and remarks, first I'm curious what you all think. smile
Please vote for your favorite instrument + version.

Thank you for uploading this, Embertone all the way for me.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759652
08/19/18 12:11 PM
08/19/18 12:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 327
G
Grazilerimba Offline
Full Member
Grazilerimba  Offline
Full Member
G

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 327
Thank you for those recordings, they indeed sound very beautiful. I would have expected to be disappointed by the CFX sound but it turns out I actually enjoy those recordings quite a bit. As some other commenters said, I, too, have become a bit disappointed in the Garritan CFX lately - it feels pretty cold and lifeless to me after spending some time with a couple of Steinways. That's why I was surprised to see that the classical recordings could still convince me. Even though the Embertone recordings did have a very beautiful and sweet tone to them. I still can't get past the Embertone's flaws though. The notes that stand out and the pretty bad performance still make it unusable to me. I'm hoping that their update will bring some improvements.

As for the Ambisonics mic in the Concert Grand, I don't know why you'd call it useless. To me it's one of the most powerful features. Even as a layman I was able to get some pretty convincing sounds out of merely using the presets. Imagine if someone knew what they're doing, they could shape the sound in ways unimaginable in the piano VST world up to this point. I can understand the frustration about the things that don't work or that need improvement - at the same time, I'd say let's not downplay the good things that this VST actually does have going for itself.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759658
08/19/18 01:17 PM
08/19/18 01:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 288
The Netherlands
P
pianistje Offline
Full Member
pianistje  Offline
Full Member
P

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 288
The Netherlands
Thanks for the recordings !!
I like the Embertone (much) more than the Garritan, but that has more to do with me and my current feelings towards the CFX right now.....

I’m bit puzzled though that some consider the Embertone a sort of ‘unusable’ in it’s current state.
I’m looking forward to updates but in the mean time i’m enjoying it a lot.

.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759659
08/19/18 01:27 PM
08/19/18 01:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
M
Max_Forte Offline
Full Member
Max_Forte  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
I think compared to Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D, PV - Concert Grand really shines here:

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Concert Grand

To me hands-down winner.


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: pianistje] #2759662
08/19/18 01:52 PM
08/19/18 01:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 327
G
Grazilerimba Offline
Full Member
Grazilerimba  Offline
Full Member
G

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 327
Originally Posted by pianistje

I’m bit puzzled though that some consider the Embertone a sort of ‘unusable’ in it’s current state.
I’m looking forward to updates but in the mean time i’m enjoying it a lot.


Yeah I talked about that in the Embertone thread. Some notes are sticking out really badly, and at least one is additionally out of tune. Repedal is advertised as a key feature but is completely missing. There is noise in at least one sample. Additionally I couldn't find a way to make it work without constantly getting clicks and missing notes. Only piano VST that gave me so many performance issues like this was the Bechstein Digital which has insane requirements if you want to crank up all the features. But I am well above the requirements of the Embertone so I shouldn't have any problems. I really want to like this piano because I have come to love its sound, but I just can't enjoy playing it like this. I think I could 'fix' the performance issues with a new PC, but the samples are the way they are and probably won't be fixed. There's enough people who don't mind these issues but to me personally I can't get over them.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759663
08/19/18 01:53 PM
08/19/18 01:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
M
Max_Forte Offline
Full Member
Max_Forte  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
The same piece rendered with IMO The Best Yamaha C7 VSTi on the market today - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Production Grand 2


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Max_Forte] #2759750
08/19/18 11:47 PM
08/19/18 11:47 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 248
CT
wolfgangmeister Offline
Full Member
wolfgangmeister  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 248
CT
Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Thank you wolfgangmeister for your Pianoteq demos.
So many nuances in sound, resonances, overtones etc that make it breathing...
Couldn't resist and just upgraded Pianoteq Stage to Standard.

Thank you Max! I also couldn't resist and upgraded from PianoTeq Stage to Standard. Let me just say that the new Steingraeber & Sohne E-272 Modeled VSTi is one of my personal favorites to play of any sampled or hybrid sampled/model VSTi; and I agree with you that the Standard version's ability to "tweak the sound and move the microphone positions" allows one to really compare it to the latest top of the line sampled instruments.

Note: The advantage for this particular PianoTeq VSTi is that I recorded the Gluck-Sgambati on the E-272 - using a specific velocity "touch response" preset that was developed to best match the advanced WNG carbon-fiber / nylon composite action on my Mason & Hamlin BB acoustic instrument. This was actually the first time I ever "muted" the action for a MIDI recording made by my acoustic using ProRecord - i.e. I used the QuietTime Mute Rail to stop the hammers just shy from striking the strings... so the feedback I was hearing was of the virtual Steingraeber instrument as I recorded the piece. Usually I play the acoustic and the MIDI recording is produced as a result of this dual acoustic performance. I feel the recording came out MUCH better using the virtual Steingraeber.

Originally Posted by slobajudge
Originally Posted by Aves
wolfgangmeister, I rendered your MIDI files in both the Embertone Steinway D and the Garritan CFX.

https://soundcloud.com/thebirds/sets/embertone-steinway-vs-garritan-cfx

For the Embertone, I made different combinations of all the mic's together with the main mic.
For the CFX, I used both the default settings (with re-pedaling enabled) and my edited version with a bit more 'body' to the sound (some extra saturation, more ambience, more dynamic range).

I will not discuss my preferences and remarks, first I'm curious what you all think. smile
Please vote for your favorite instrument + version.

Thank you for uploading this, Embertone all the way for me.

I also want to thank you Aves for all of your hard work of creating these comparisons!

I agree with slobajudge relative to the Embertone's ability to reproduce the Gluck-Sgambati. Really beautiful tones out of this instrument as compared to Production Voices Concert Grand LE and Garrison CFX Full or even PianoTeq Steinway D. It is a very close second for me to the Steingraeber E-272, and that may have been due to the inexact mapping of the velocity touch response, relative to the original recording. This actually may be the biggest problem I heard with the PV "Steinway D" Concert Grand recording... the touch response seems to be off a bit as the piece crescendos... The Garritan CFX Full was my third favorite and this also surprised me as it was warmer and had more character than I expected from hearing some of the demos.

Originally Posted by pianistje
Thanks for the recordings !!
I like the Embertone (much) more than the Garritan, but that has more to do with me and my current feelings towards the CFX right now.....

I’m bit puzzled though that some consider the Embertone a sort of ‘unusable’ in it’s current state.
I’m looking forward to updates but in the mean time i’m enjoying it a lot.
.

Thank you pianistje! I definitely agree with you on the Gluck-Sgambati relative to the Embertone tone, BUT, I think the Liszt Orage reveals some of the Embertone's current "playability" deficiencies... without me even playing it... especially with the repedaling and half-pedaling... somehow it is just not right. Notes in the bass are being cut off abruptly, and this does not happen with Garrison CFX, PV Concert Grand LE or with any of the PianoTeq VSTi options. It also doesn't happen when I play it back on my M&H BB Acoustic via PianoDisc SilentDrive HD either!

Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
Thank you for those recordings, they indeed sound very beautiful. I would have expected to be disappointed by the CFX sound but it turns out I actually enjoy those recordings quite a bit. As some other commenters said, I, too, have become a bit disappointed in the Garritan CFX lately - it feels pretty cold and lifeless to me after spending some time with a couple of Steinways. That's why I was surprised to see that the classical recordings could still convince me. Even though the Embertone recordings did have a very beautiful and sweet tone to them. I still can't get past the Embertone's flaws though. The notes that stand out and the pretty bad performance still make it unusable to me. I'm hoping that their update will bring some improvements.

Thank you Grazilerimba! Relative to your thoughts on touch response (see alternate PianoWorld thread)...
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...h-one-vst-using-another.html#Post2759649
... you are absolutely right on the money, and I experienced this when I made the Gluck-Sgambati recording. If one could have create equivalent touch responses (using a standard VSTi interface), using a standard MIDI file might be a more effective method of comparing VSTIs.
Relative to your thoughts on the Embertone, agree relative to the sweet tone and (see above) the Embertone's playability flaws are very evident to me in the Liszt Orage, especially with the pedaling (listen at 10 sec, 17 sec, 18 sec, and 21 sec).

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
The same piece rendered with IMO The Best Yamaha C7 VSTi on the market today - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Production Grand 2

Originally Posted by Max_Forte
I think compared to Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D, PV - Concert Grand really shines here:

Jason Solomonides - Liszt - Orage - Production Voices - Concert Grand

To me hands-down winner.

Thank you Max for posting both of these Liszt recordings on the PV Concert and Production Grands... and once gain to Aves for posting the many Garritan CFX and Embertone Walker D perspectives!

In short, the recordings demonstrate a sense of the power of the Production Voices instruments, and playability of the Garritan... I liked both better than the Embertone Walker Steinway D due to the known re-pedaling shortfall.... BUT... although they sound phenomenal at the posted speeds, I think I recorded them at a TEMPO 25% and 15% slower, respectively, than what got posted here for both Production Voice VSTis and the Garritan/Embertone recordings! The MIDI file I shared should have taken 5:15.8 (or 315.8 sec) to complete. I believe I would be dead right now if I tried to match the phenomenal increased PV 25% lightning pace... or perhaps at the Garritan/Embertone 15% faster pace I feel like the undiscovered protege of the late Vladimir Horowitz! BTW - The sound of the Production Grand surprised me too, I liked it almost as much as the Concert Grand. Any reason why the recordings got sped up? Something wrong or incomplete in the MIDI file? PianoTeq, Aria, Zenph RePerform HD MIDI Editor and VanBasco's all render it similarly. Anyway, I also got a sense of the the two PV instruments by slowing it down without pitch change using Audacity, but this tool unfortunately distorts the sound a bit when you perform this action.

Thanks!


Jason Solomonides
Mason & Hamlin 7' BB 93623
Yamaha 6'1" C3 (w/WNG) D3010008
My Piano Recordings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7aJcfJZZvg&list=PLkP65I5BsNirTcv-nAHm4BXXsCbB_EbAJ
Mason & Hamlin Artist
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: wolfgangmeister] #2759765
08/20/18 02:55 AM
08/20/18 02:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 20
The Netherlands
A
Aves Offline
Full Member
Aves  Offline
Full Member
A

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 20
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by wolfgangmeister

I agree with slobajudge relative to the Embertone's ability to reproduce the Gluck-Sgambati. Really beautiful tones out of this instrument as compared to Production Voices Concert Grand LE and Garrison CFX Full or even PianoTeq Steinway D. It is a very close second for me to the Steingraeber E-272, and that may have been due to the inexact mapping of the velocity touch response, relative to the original recording. This actually may be the biggest problem I heard with the PV "Steinway D" Concert Grand recording... the touch response seems to be off a bit as the piece crescendos... The Garritan CFX Full was my third favorite and this also surprised me as it was warmer and had more character than I expected from hearing some of the demos.

(...)
I definitely agree with you on the Gluck-Sgambati relative to the Embertone tone, BUT, I think the Liszt Orage reveals some of the Embertone's current "playability" deficiencies... without me even playing it... especially with the repedaling and half-pedaling... somehow it is just not right. Notes in the bass are being cut off abruptly, and this does not happen with Garrison CFX, PV Concert Grand LE or with any of the PianoTeq VSTi options. It also doesn't happen when I play it back on my M&H BB Acoustic via PianoDisc SilentDrive HD either!



So, for me, I was actually surprised how good the Embertone came out after rendering the file.

The perceived sound while playing consists of an interaction between both the recorded sound of the samples as the playability of the piano. The CFX sounds MUCH better during playing than the Embertone, or even all other VST's I tried, for exactly this reason.

There are a couple of problems with the Embertone:

- Obvious flaws with the pedaling, which are actually not that bad in the recordings of the Gluck pieces, worse in the Orage piece, but somehow when I play it seems to be even worse. Maybe has something to do with the way I'm used to pedaling, but please mind that I have no problems on other VST's (pianoteq/CFX/Vintage D/Grandeur) or any real piano/grand.

- When playing the piano, it feels sometimes like I'm playing 'on felt', little bit like the middle practice pedal on an upright piano. I lose the (mental) connection between playing and the sound output. Most of the times, this is an issue with the dynamic/velocity curves (latency is already very small). However, I still haven't been able to fully correct this (the lack of fine control of the velocity curves in the interface does not help). The middle-lower part of the piano sounds muffled compared to the upper part that sounds quite sharp. The timbre of the sound in different velocity levels changes to much to my taste, in which lower velocities again sound to muffled and higher velocities to bright. Again this possibly has to do with my inabilities to get the velocity and dynamic curves right. All in all it does not feel very 'even', although I'm not an expert as that I can not give any numbers or technical interpretations of this as some users on this forum can.

- Overall lack of 'thunder' or 'body' in the sound of the lower registers. The CFX really shines on this.

I'm really puzzled what the Garritan CFX does which makes it such a playable piano, for me up there with PianoTeq, but I guess even better because of the mentioned interaction between sound and playability.

Originally Posted by wolfgangmeister

I think I recorded them at a TEMPO 25% and 15% slower, respectively, than what got posted here for both Production Voice VSTis and the Garritan/Embertone recordings! The MIDI file I shared should have taken 5:15.8 (or 315.8 sec) to complete. I believe I would be dead right now if I tried to match the phenomenal increased PV 25% lightning pace... or perhaps at the Garritan/Embertone 15% faster pace I feel like the undiscovered protege of the late Vladimir Horowitz! BTW - The sound of the Production Grand surprised me too, I liked it almost as much as the Concert Grand. Any reason why the recordings got sped up? Something wrong or incomplete in the MIDI file? PianoTeq, Aria, Zenph RePerform HD MIDI Editor and VanBasco's all render it similarly. Anyway, I also got a sense of the the two PV instruments by slowing it down without pitch change using Audacity, but this tool unfortunately distorts the sound a bit when you perform this action.


In hindsight your MIDI file was fine. When I imported the MIDI file in Studio One, I got some weird tempo markings (with tempo of 250-300) and tought maybe the tempo was wrongly interpreted by the software. To be sure I changed the speed of the recording a bit to average the lenghts of the pieces found elsewere.



Last edited by Aves; 08/20/18 02:58 AM.

Kawai VPC1 - Garritan CFX
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759773
08/20/18 04:14 AM
08/20/18 04:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 614
S
slobajudge Offline
500 Post Club Member
slobajudge  Offline
500 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 614
As far as I know Embertone working hard on update for piano, it is a matter of days, so it will be very interesting to test it after update.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759784
08/20/18 05:24 AM
08/20/18 05:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 260
R
RobR Offline
Full Member
RobR  Offline
Full Member
R

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 260
I'm hoping (and i don't think they will) Embertone addresses the attack delay issue when you hit a key. That made the piano completely unplayable for me, it's like i feel like i'm playing with "third party" hands or with gloves, no connection whatsoever because of that delay.

In audio, even if you're playing on 64 buffer, sometimes latency get introduced when you insert effects on your track (limiter, certain reverbs...), that's why it's a rule of thumb not to use third party plugin effects when recording. My concern is that Embertone may have some of those "third-party" effects already baked in the engine.

If they address this issue in the update, then it will be welcomed back to my SSD, because as for now it's out of my computer, moved to an external dead archives drive.

Last edited by tdwctdwc; 08/20/18 05:29 AM.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759841
08/20/18 10:19 AM
08/20/18 10:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
M
Max_Forte Offline
Full Member
Max_Forte  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
I rendered 88-key chromatic scale with PV - Concert Grand in several velocity levels:

1, 4, 8, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, 44, 48, 52, 56, 60, 64, 68, 72, 76, 80, 84, 88, 92, 96, 100, 104, 108, 112, 116, 120, 127

Souncloud link

"Concert Grand" - preset used with bypassed reverb. No other tweaking, processing or loudness adjustments made.

For those who are wondering about different loudness level. Hope this helps.

BTW, Sounds great. smile


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759870
08/20/18 12:52 PM
08/20/18 12:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 327
G
Grazilerimba Offline
Full Member
Grazilerimba  Offline
Full Member
G

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 327
That's an interesting experiment Max Forte, and in those recordings the piano does sound really good. The piano sounds great in general, IMHO. The thing is, those recordings do not adequately portray the issue of the weak upper registers. If you listen really closely, you might hear it to some extent - because the last notes (the higest octave on the piano) are very clear and cut through, but the notes about one or two octaves below that are noticeably weaker. You gotta play the instrument and actually feel the weakened response of the keys while playing chords and melodies that go into those areas and move away from them to really get an idea of this issue. I'm really surprised this isn't clearer in your recordings, would have thought it would be.

Aa for the Embertone, I'm waiting for the update as well. Really curious if they will improve on it. The developers seem to be very responsive to their customers from what I can see.

Last edited by Grazilerimba; 08/20/18 12:53 PM.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759887
08/20/18 02:01 PM
08/20/18 02:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,445
Sweden
TheodorN Offline
2000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,445
Sweden
Is the Soundcloud sound wave diagram an indication, that the volume of the higher notes is indeed lower? The bars are lower in height for the higher notes, than for the low to middle ones, in Max's recordings.

Is it possibly normal that the notes higher in frequency, are automatically lower in volume? Is an acoustic piano like that?

Sorry for all those questions, but I have a few more.

It's positive, that Embertone is responsive to the complaints of their customers, but shouldn't they, or any VSTi producer for that matter, make sure they have a product in decent shape, before releasing it on the free market?

Is it acceptable, that even the biggest names in the field of virtual instruments, are releasing products that look like old trousers, needing stitches here and there?

Are the manufacturers moving their R&D departments to the final customer, thus getting cheap labour for research and development? Well, actually totally free, because VSTis are not going down in price, as far as I can tell.

Last edited by TheodorN; 08/20/18 02:05 PM.

My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Garritan CFX. Prod. Voices: Grand 2 Gold, Concert Grand Compact, Est. Grand, Studio Grand LE. NI Giant. Galaxy II Blüthner Baby Grand. AcousticSamples C7. AK Studio Grand. Sampletekk Black. Kontakt 5. Reaper.
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: TheodorN] #2759892
08/20/18 02:31 PM
08/20/18 02:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,747
Portugal
T
toddy Offline
3000 Post Club Member
toddy  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,747
Portugal
Originally Posted by TheodorN
Is the Soundcloud sound wave diagram an indication, that the volume of the higher notes is indeed lower? The bars are lower in height for the higher notes, than for the low to middle ones, in Max's recordings.

Is it possibly normal that the notes higher in frequency, are automatically lower in volume? Is an acoustic piano like that?


Yes. The lower the note, the higher the energy needed to achieve the same perceived volume. (though I doubt this relationship is linear across the spectrum). The 'bars' you mention are actally waves whose height represents amplitude, which is energy.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759900
08/20/18 03:14 PM
08/20/18 03:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,462
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
9000 Post Club Member
MacMacMac  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,462
Raleigh, North Carolina
And to add to that ... the higher the note, the higher the energy needed to achieve the same perceived volume.
Our hearing is at its peak at around 1 kHz, and drops off marked above and below.

Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759956
08/20/18 07:05 PM
08/20/18 07:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
M
Max_Forte Offline
Full Member
Max_Forte  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 167
Moscow, Russia
One more thing that caught my attention. PV's demo at Soundcloud:


SoundCloud: Concert Grand demo track - "Depths Of You by Eric Levy" starting at 1:12


Please, pay attention (starting at 01:12) to incredible real-life resonances. Interference of the sound waves results in chaotic sound reflections of the ringing strings in an unpredictable way! It makes you forget these are samples, not Pianoteq nor the real piano! Every time he presses the keys really hard piano adds different "colors" and tones to the core sound palette. Forty seconds of playing different samples per key: It is more like Pianoteq than the other libraries.

I like it more and more. Best "Steinway" on the VSTi market now.

Thanks to tdwctdwc for his advice to do "Batch-Resave", many issues gone.




Glad I bought it! smile


Roland FP-30
Komplete 12 Ult: UVI - Falcon; Vilabs - Ravenscroft; Pianoteq - 6 Std (Bluthner, Steinway D, K2); Galaxy - Vintage D, Vienna Grand; Production Voices - All Kontakt libs; Lounge Lizard EP-4; Neo-Soul Keys; AS - C7 Grand; Addictive Keys- All
Zoom UAC-2; Beyers DT-880 PRO; JBL - LSR305
Re: Steinway D Concert Grand [Re: Cinjero] #2759967
08/20/18 07:31 PM
08/20/18 07:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 151
B
bsntn99 Offline
Full Member
bsntn99  Offline
Full Member
B

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 151
I think it's a bit disingenuous to call this the best vsti as this is your opinion and others may not feel as you do. I doubt the playability is on the level of the Garritan CFX or Pianoteq. I have the Concert Grand Compact which is the a subset of Concert Grand LE containing only the side mics. As I mentioned earlier, I find the setup more pop oriented with some unison tuning issues and a very hard attack. In the demos I am also picking up a bit of buzzing here and there. I notice this as well with a few of the samples in CGC. This may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Realize this is a piano that has been dragged around on the road and probably subjected to a lot of swings in terms of temperature and humidity. I would much prefer sampling a piano that has been left in situ in a studio or other controlled surroundings. I get that you are passionate about this library, but I think folks need to listen to demos and grab the Concert Grand Compact demo to try and make up their own mind. For me I'm passing and will look toward the Embertone. Currently I much prefer The Grandeur overall versus PV Concert Grand, but to each his own.

Page 13 of 14 1 2 11 12 13 14

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha MODX
by CyberGene. 10/19/19 10:41 AM
HiJacking Threads
by dmd. 10/19/19 10:32 AM
Beginner Question: "Polishing" a Piece
by Antihero. 10/19/19 10:28 AM
Scales - natural or traditional fingering?
by Barly. 10/19/19 08:52 AM
Terrific Pianist!
by camperbc. 10/19/19 07:39 AM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,608
Posts2,880,919
Members94,709
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1