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Question about Roland sound #2758653
08/15/18 04:38 PM
08/15/18 04:38 PM
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RonnieD Offline OP
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Hey everyone,

I am currently looking to buy a digital piano and am looking at the Roland FP series. Could someone explain to me what the difference is between the FP30/60 and FP90 sound engine? One says Supernatural piano sound (sampled?) and the other says Supernatural piano modeling. I was under the impression that all Roland pianos were modeled. I did a search to try and figure this out but ended up more confused.

I played an F-140r a while back and really liked the sound which I assume is the same sound as the FP30/60 so I'm leaning in this direction.

Thanks!

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Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758664
08/15/18 05:07 PM
08/15/18 05:07 PM
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Nordomus Offline
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No, not all Roland pianos are modeled. So there are basically 2 types of Roland sound engines Supernatural piano and Supernatural modelling. I recommend modelling but test them out if you have some place to do that.
F140R is sampled which is not bad, I also like that sound but modelled engine is much more immersive and interesting.

Last edited by Nordomus; 08/15/18 05:09 PM.
Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758681
08/15/18 06:09 PM
08/15/18 06:09 PM
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Bambers Offline
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The older sound engine in the fp30 has sampled attacks but seems to have some reasonably comprehensive modelling of the resonance and decays (which, even on this sampled sound, do not loop as their competitors' sound do).

The newer engine is pure modelling.

Preferences seem to go both ways. I prefer the older engine as the newer once just sounds a bit weird to me on the attacks in the mid range. Though that's mostly based on defaults and recordings, I've not had a proper go at the settings to see if this is something that can be tweaked out.

Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758762
08/15/18 10:55 PM
08/15/18 10:55 PM
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drewr Offline
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As already mentioned, FP30 & 60 have sample based sound engine. FP90 has model-based sound engine.

Most but not all new Roland DPs have the model-based engine, which was announced late 2015, and now includes the HP6xx series, LX7 & 17, FP90 and the RD2000, the latter contains 2 sound engines - 1 modeled, 1 sampled.

As far as a trademarked secret sauce, Roland has been marketing “SuperNatural” sound engine since, roughly, 2013, so it may be safer to say most if not all Roland DPs introduced since then are SuperNaturaled ... capeesh?


- Kawai MP7 w/ MDR7506 phones and LSR308 monitors
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Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758806
08/16/18 05:53 AM
08/16/18 05:53 AM
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EVC2017 Offline
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AFAICT SN is not sampled. Aaeons ago, one manufacturer, I am not sure if Roland, Emu Systems or another whose name escapes now introduced a hybrid technology where the attack was sampled and the rest of the sound was modeled (though they did not use this term by then, AFAIR) based on psychoacoustics (they did not use this term either). I remember reading an article describing an experiment where the attack was removed and people were unable to tell what instrument generated the sounds. A lot of development must have occurred in 30 or so years so that concept must have evolved. I understand from what I read that SN is based in samples in the sense they are analysed to be emulated synthetically.


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758808
08/16/18 06:02 AM
08/16/18 06:02 AM
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Pete14 Offline
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AFLAC SN is modeled?

Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: Pete14] #2758810
08/16/18 06:59 AM
08/16/18 06:59 AM
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Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Pete14
AFLAC SN is modeled?


SuperNatural Piano Modelling = 100% modelled.
SuperNatural Piano = Hybrid (sampling + some modelling e.g., resonance modelling)


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758821
08/16/18 07:47 AM
08/16/18 07:47 AM
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Pete14 Offline
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AMICA both are SuperDuper!

Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758917
08/16/18 01:12 PM
08/16/18 01:12 PM
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clothearednincompo Offline
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It was Roland that played around with the SA and LA synthesis decades ago. I don't remember which one was which, but I think either one was the one with sampled attacks and synthesized sustains. (Or something like that.)

Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758964
08/16/18 04:13 PM
08/16/18 04:13 PM
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RonnieD Offline OP
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I assume the new Supernatural modeled sound is better than the old sampled one??? I really like the old one based on playing an F-140r a while back. Wasn't really impressed with the newer modeled one, but only listened to it watching youtube videos; haven't personally played one yet. Not sure I can justify spending $1100 more which is the difference b/w an FP30 and FP90.

Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758985
08/16/18 05:05 PM
08/16/18 05:05 PM
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by RonnieD
I assume the new Supernatural modeled sound is better than the old sampled one??? I really like the old one based on playing an F-140r a while back. Wasn't really impressed with the newer modeled one, but only listened to it watching youtube videos; haven't personally played one yet. Not sure I can justify spending $1100 more which is the difference b/w an FP30 and FP90.

Not everyone agrees that the new modelled SN is better than the hybrid original Roland SN. The original one (about a decade old now) was, from my experiments, way ahead of other DP sound engines at the time in terms of fidelity to real piano and liveliness of the sound from attack to final decay.

I, like some others who have commented here, do not altogether like the new SN as it has a pure, transparent, synthetic tone (although not lacking in liveliness or subtlety. However, those who have it comment that it grows on you, and that it is extremely responsive and pleasant to play and interact with. I've not played it long enough to find out but my initial impression was mixed.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: toddy] #2758988
08/16/18 05:14 PM
08/16/18 05:14 PM
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by RonnieD
I assume the new Supernatural modeled sound is better than the old sampled one??? I really like the old one based on playing an F-140r a while back. Wasn't really impressed with the newer modeled one, but only listened to it watching youtube videos; haven't personally played one yet. Not sure I can justify spending $1100 more which is the difference b/w an FP30 and FP90.

Not everyone agrees that the new modelled SN is better than the hybrid original Roland SN. The original one (about a decade old now) was, from my experiments, way ahead of other DP sound engines at the time in terms of fidelity to real piano and liveliness of the sound from attack to final decay.

I, like some others who have commented here, do not altogether like the new SN as it has a pure, transparent, synthetic tone (although not lacking in liveliness or subtlety. However, those who have it comment that it grows on you, and that it is extremely responsive and pleasant to play and interact with. I've not played it long enough to find out but my initial impression was mixed.


Yes - I agree, extremely responsive and yes, it does grow on you.

Last edited by Colin Miles; 08/16/18 05:15 PM. Reason: additional comment

Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2758991
08/16/18 05:32 PM
08/16/18 05:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,453
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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Northern England.
For those who prefer the older SN piano, the HP601 retains that sound engine. It would be good, I think, and cheap for playing a software piano on, through it's own speakers.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2759018
08/16/18 06:36 PM
08/16/18 06:36 PM
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Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Raising the "string resonance" parameter on the FP-90 (I think the default is 5, and the maximum is 10) might increase the complexity of those "pure, transparent, synthetic" tones.

It won't change the sound of one-note-at-a-time testing. But it'll change the sound of normal playing, significantly.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: RonnieD] #2759097
08/17/18 06:46 AM
08/17/18 06:46 AM
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MarioPf Offline
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If you are not in a hurry, I would wait some time. It is possible that at the beginning of 2019 new DP models will be launched, such as a new Casio Privia line, a new Kawai ES line or a new Roland FP line.

The Roland FP-90 has many advantages over the FP-30 (better action, better speakers, many more sounds), but it´s heavier and it does not have the old SUPERNATURAL piano sound, like the RD 2000 has (and it has also the full modeled sound).

Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: drewr] #2759158
08/17/18 11:49 AM
08/17/18 11:49 AM
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Pennsylvania
drewr Offline
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Originally Posted by RonnieD
....One says Supernatural piano sound (sampled?) and the other says Supernatural piano modeling. I was under the impression that all Roland pianos were modeled. I did a search to try and figure this out but ended up more confused. .....
Thanks!



RonnieD, now that the main (2) flavors of SuperNatural (SN) sound engine have been discussed, in the context of your original inquiry, you were partly under the correct impression; all Roland DPs between 2010 * and late 2015 , albeit using sample-based tones for the acoustic piano voices, were/are nonetheless partly modeled. The intro of the new LX & HP6xx models in late 2015 was a demarcation of Roland’s rolling out new, “totally modeled” DP models. Based on your comments, it seems you may currently prefer the sound of partly-modeled , sample-based models BUT as others have witnessed, if given a chance, you may gradually come to like the sound of a fully-modeled model.

* Earlier I roughly estimated 2013 as the era when SN came into existance but last night I did additional searching and found an online marketing brochure on a UK website that indicates 2010 as the year Roland rolled out SN by way of the V-Piano.

Best of luck to you as you continue to deliberate purchase of a new DP.

-drew


- Kawai MP7 w/ MDR7506 phones and LSR308 monitors
- Roland HP-508
Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: drewr] #2759181
08/17/18 12:47 PM
08/17/18 12:47 PM
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by drewr

* Earlier I roughly estimated 2013 as the era when SN came into existance but last night I did additional searching and found an online marketing brochure on a UK website that indicates 2010 as the year Roland rolled out SN by way of the v piano


Actually, I don't think the V- piano was ever called SN - and (unlike the original SN) it was always 100% modelled. However, this isnt that important re the dates as both SN (hybrid) and the modelled V-piano came out around the same time about 2010, afaik.


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Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: toddy] #2759435
08/18/18 01:56 PM
08/18/18 01:56 PM
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Pennsylvania
drewr Offline
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by drewr

* Earlier I roughly estimated 2013 as the era when SN came into existance but last night I did additional searching and found an online marketing brochure on a UK website that indicates 2010 as the year Roland rolled out SN by way of the v piano


Actually, I don't think the V- piano was ever called SN - and (unlike the original SN) it was always 100% modelled. However, this isnt that important re the dates as both SN (hybrid) and the modelled V-piano came out around the same time about 2010, afaik.



Upon further review, I tend to agree. It looks as though SuperNatural was an outgrowth from the R&D of V-Piano. The second link below discusses this.

The OP’s inquiry motivated me to try finding some info for relevant history. At the time I purchased the HP508, I was new to the Roland experience at the same time Roland was upgrading their sound tech from hybrid SN to totally-modeled SN .... and its taken me til now to better appreciate some of the what-is-SN ?particulars.

The info at the first link below, which indirectly led me to the second link, ends with the following blurb:

Supernatural Technology: Enables your digital piano to combine all the benefits of both an acoustic and a digital piano in one like never before In 2010 the Roland launched the SuperNATURAL digital piano series including the HP Series. SuperNATURAL Technology, brings together Roland V-Piano technology and 88-key stereo multi-sampling technology. This new sound engine is the product of research of the characteristics of acoustic pianos. SuperNATURAL technology has three parts: organic tonal change, multi-sampling and natural decay. SuperNatural Piano technology is only available in Roland Digital Pianos

http://www.roland.co.uk/blog/digital-pianos-faqs/


Link to V - Piano tech
https://www.pianobuyer.com/Articles/Detail/ArticleId/154/THE-ROLAND-V-PIANO-AND-SUPERNATURAL®-PIANO-SOUND-ENGINE

Last edited by drewr; 08/18/18 01:57 PM.

- Kawai MP7 w/ MDR7506 phones and LSR308 monitors
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Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: drewr] #2759436
08/18/18 01:59 PM
08/18/18 01:59 PM
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toddy Offline
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Originally Posted by drewr
Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by drewr

* Earlier I roughly estimated 2013 as the era when SN came into existance but last night I did additional searching and found an online marketing brochure on a UK website that indicates 2010 as the year Roland rolled out SN by way of the v piano


Actually, I don't think the V- piano was ever called SN - and (unlike the original SN) it was always 100% modelled. However, this isnt that important re the dates as both SN (hybrid) and the modelled V-piano came out around the same time about 2010, afaik.



Upon further review, it looks as though SuperNatural was an outgrowth from the R&D of V-Piano. The second link below

Yes, it would have been a result of V-piano R&D - that makes sense. My point was that the SN brand was not originally associated with 100% modelling - it was, and was marketed as, a hybrid system. SN total modelling is a much more recent thing (c 2015). In fact, many people (in this forum) were sceptical as to whether it was really modelled, despite Roland's rep, Jay, assuring us that it was, because people were so used to it's being semi modelled, semi sampled.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

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Re: Question about Roland sound [Re: toddy] #2759437
08/18/18 02:06 PM
08/18/18 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
In fact, many people (in this forum) were sceptical as to whether it was really modelled, despite Roland's rep, Jay, assuring us that it was, because people were so used to it's being semi modelled, semi sampled.

Also maybe because another Roland employee claims it is NOT fully modelled and there is initial sample. I'm still confused honestly. If I find video with this claim again I'll link it for you. Anyway someone is either lying or does not know how this engine works.
From the sound and how it behaves I would say it IS fully modelled but I'm not completely sure.

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