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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2756816
08/08/18 02:09 PM
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Speaking of the wolf:
http://slippedisc.com/2018/08/steinway-to-be-sold-to-chinese-state-company/

Somebody just shared this, but I expect plenty of folks around here already knew this.

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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: Max_Forte] #2756821
08/08/18 02:28 PM
08/08/18 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Is there anyone who think that Steinway D in Pianoteq 6 sounds worse than Steinway B, Grotrian, K2, Steingraeber, and Blüthner?



I've thought that for a long time. But you can improve things; playing it quietly will never fetch out it's true tone. I like 'em all now, but the Bechstein sounds most like an everyday acoustic. in the vintage collection (2, I think) so I use that.
The second sample has that essential Pianoteq woodyness in every case bar the last.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: Max_Forte] #2757008
08/09/18 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Max_Forte
Is there anyone who think that Steinway D in Pianoteq 6 sounds worse than Steinway B, Grotrian, K2, Steingraeber, and Blüthner?



Yes and No. I don't have Pianoteq but I've heard every samples on their sites. Immediately I feel something weird in the Steinway D sound, especially in comparison with the "new" Steingraeber E-272. But then I realized something: I new nothing about the Steingraeber but the Steinway D has the most recognizable piano sound in the world. That is, I have a "copy" of the Steinway D in memory and I can detected every detail not in conformity with the "orthodoxy".

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757364
08/10/18 10:39 AM
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It'd be rather interesting if a couple of acoustic Steinway Bs were recorded. And have us all evaluate them in comparison to Pianoteq. Which came closest . . . smile


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: MacMacMac] #2757380
08/10/18 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The term "data and model coupling" means exactly the same thing as any other cute phrase used in a logo, a promo, or in any other marketing material.

It's intended to mean "Gee whiz, isn't our product wonderful, even if it's only because we've dreamed up a bunch of nonsense words to extoll its virtues".

But it actually means nothing at all.
Originally Posted by Max_Forte
BTW, can somebody, please explain what they mean under: "Data and model coupling"



Yes, "data and model coupling" may be nothing but marketing nonsense. Or it may actually make sense if you have the slightest clue about how Pianoteq works. Data and model coupling are a reference to physical modelling synthesis, i.e. the combination ("coupling") of a sound waveform (data) with a model to produce synthesized sound. There are plenty of publications explaining this process, including the patent filed by Moddart (https://www.lens.org/lens/patent/US_7915515_B2).

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757392
08/10/18 12:26 PM
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I tried to glimpse through the patent. I don't have enough time to do so in detail and also understanding this matter requires strong mathematical knowledge. Furthermore, the English language and style in these patents always seems pretty weird even for a non-native English speaker. I'm saying all that as a disclaimer why my following statements might be entirely wrong.

So, with all the above being said, my understanding of the Pianoteq patent is that it's not an actual (proper) physical modeling of a piano. The patent itself states that such a finite modeling is impractical and won't allow realtime playing.

And so it seems they have actually recorded real piano samples and analyzed them in their labs to observe how the partials (sine waves that constitute a piano note being played) change with the time. In other words it's a clever audio compression of the original samples. Also, changing parameters of the piano such as soundboard size, string materials, etc. would affect how those partial would evolve in time depending on the actual parameter change.

All that is kind of heuristics but to my limited understanding seems like a very long shot at modeling. I wouldn't even call it modeling to be honest but once again my understanding might be entirely wrong.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: CyberGene] #2757400
08/10/18 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, with all the above being said, my understanding of the Pianoteq patent is that it's not an actual (proper) physical modeling of a piano. The patent itself states that such a finite modeling is impractical and won't allow realtime playing.

Depends on how old that statement is and the available computing power of that time.

Quote
And so it seems they have actually recorded real piano samples and analyzed them in their labs to observe how the partials (sine waves that constitute a piano note being played) change with the time. In other words it's a clever audio compression of the original samples.

This is a valid perspective. But it raises the question how this is superior to modern lossless and lossy audio compression technology.

Once upon a time we didn't have the storage capacity for full sampled recordings (without any quality loss). These times are gone, as GBs of RAM and hundreds of GBs of solid state storage are available in the mass market now.

Quote
All that is kind of heuristics but to my limited understanding seems like a very long shot at modeling. I wouldn't even call it modeling to be honest but once again my understanding might be entirely wrong.

Any kind of lossy audio compression is some kind of "data-driven modeling" - aiming at recreating the original sound without having to keep every sample. Thing is: modern audio codecs are extremely good at it. You can run a piano sound through AAC, Vorbis or Opus without any audible loss at sufficient bit rates.

So the main question is: What is the point of going farther than that with an substantial audible loss, when having the hardware available in 2018?


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757405
08/10/18 01:09 PM
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^ JoeT, indeed, I have those questions too. Stepping into Modartt's shoes and provided my assumption about how their stuff works are correct, I believe their audio compressions is in a domain that allows changes of various "compression" parameters to recreate changes in soundboard behavior, string interaction, etc. Which isn't the case with AAC, etc. whose only purpose is to store the original samples as faithful as possible. Whereas in the Pianoteq's case the main purpose is to be able to manipulate the compressed samples with fairly decent ability to change timbre, resonances, etc.

Once again, all that being said, I still believe what they have created is far from proper physical modeling and some of their avid proponents base their fanatical defense on the grounds it's a "modeled piano" hence so much superior than silly sampling whereas in reality the two approaches might not be so much different. Which is in fact corroborated by my own experience with both modeled pianos and samples pianos.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: CyberGene] #2757412
08/10/18 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
^ JoeT, indeed, I have those questions too. Stepping into Modartt's shoes and provided my assumption about how their stuff works are correct, I believe their audio compressions is in a domain that allows changes of various "compression" parameters to recreate changes in soundboard behavior, string interaction, etc. Which isn't the case with AAC, etc. whose only purpose is to store the original samples as faithful as possible. Whereas in the Pianoteq's case the main purpose is to be able to manipulate the compressed samples with fairly decent ability to change timbre, resonances, etc.

But you can manipulate and transform compressed sampled recordings in various ways, too. Which is what modern digital pianos do all the time. In the end all digital instruments have some kind of data stored which gets put through programmed data transformation according to player input to recreate a piano sound.

The original source is the recorded acoustic piano sound containing audible elements we might not even know about (yet). The most blunt approach is to store uncompressed sample of that and replay it on key press. Of course, no modern instrument does this. So the process everyone uses is to create some intermediate data from the source recording to be stored in the instrument and transformed further by the instrument according to player input.

So now the only question remaining is how close to the source the intermediate data is, you store in the instrument. Because it's pretty clear, that "modeled" piano loses something substantial on way. Something many people might not even hear. This why lossy audio codecs in development go through double-blind testing with lots of humans, before being finalized - to make sure nobody can hear the codec and (almost) anybody can hear the reproduction properly.

Quote
Once again, all that being said, I still believe what they have created is far from proper physical modeling and some of their avid proponents base their fanatical defense on the grounds it's a "modeled piano" hence so much superior than silly sampling whereas in reality the two approaches might not be so much different. Which is in fact corroborated by my own experience with both modeled pianos and samples pianos.

Seeing Roland's new approach failing to capture the truth as well, I think Yamaha and Kawai are much closer to a faithful digital reproduction of piano. Calling their approach "sampled", just because they are better sounding would be just as silly with stuff like "virtual technician" now being the norm.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: CyberGene] #2757415
08/10/18 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Once again, all that being said, I still believe what they have created is far from proper physical modeling and some of their avid proponents base their fanatical defense on the grounds it's a "modeled piano" hence so much superior than silly sampling whereas in reality the two approaches might not be so much different. Which is in fact corroborated by my own experience with both modeled pianos and samples pianos.

I must admit that it is incredible `sample` piano in 40mb as you said. Lucky for all of us here that you know better than Modartt what they use in a process. In all respect to your knowledge, why not just ask Modartt if you have any doubt about technology they used. Maybe it is really `sample` piano. I will be happy whatever answers they give to you.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: slobajudge] #2757416
08/10/18 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
I must admit that it is incredible `sample` piano in 40mb as you said. Lucky for all of us here that you know better than Modartt what they use in a process. In all respect to your knowledge, why not just ask Modartt if you have any doubt about technology they used. Maybe it is really `sample` piano. I will be happy whatever answers they give to you.

I don't know why people get so upset about this. We completely acknowledge that they have a clever approach with minimum storage and calculation power requirements at the customer side, which still able to almost reproduce a piano. That is an impressive achievement on its own.

But I'm questioning the need for that in the current day and age, where a simple phone app is larger than the Pianoteq distribution package.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: JoeT] #2757419
08/10/18 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by slobajudge
I must admit that it is incredible `sample` piano in 40mb as you said. Lucky for all of us here that you know better than Modartt what they use in a process. In all respect to your knowledge, why not just ask Modartt if you have any doubt about technology they used. Maybe it is really `sample` piano. I will be happy whatever answers they give to you.

I don't know why people get so upset about this. We completely acknowledge that they have a clever approach with minimum storage and calculation power requirements at the customer side, which still able to almost reproduce a piano. That is an impressive achievement on its own.

But I'm questioning the need for that in the current day and age, where a simple phone app is larger than the Pianoteq distribution package.

The solution without arrogance is simple: Ask them. It will be really good to know how they do it.

Last edited by slobajudge; 08/10/18 02:13 PM.
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: slobajudge] #2757423
08/10/18 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
I must admit that it is incredible `sample` piano in 40mb as you said

I didn't say it's a sampled piano, you're quoting me wrong.

Originally Posted by slobajudge
Lucky for all of us here that you know better than Modartt what they use in a process.

It's this kind of ad hominem sarcasm that got you banned last time, do you remember?

Originally Posted by slobajudge
why not just ask Modartt if you have any doubt about technology they used.

They have never answered about how they technology works and I've asked them many times. As a matter of fact I have exchanged communications with Philippe Guillaume, I've been part of the beta testing team and I have a deep respect for his knowledge but that doesn't mean he should explain their technology to anybody outside Modartt.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: slobajudge] #2757427
08/10/18 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
The solution without ignorance is simple: Ask them. It will be really good to know how they do it.

Why don't you answer the question, why I need a virtual piano, which download size is smaller than a typical phone app?

Because I see no reason why the install size of Ptq has to be a fraction of my Intel Wi-Fi driver, which takes around 400 MB. And don't let me start on web browsers or other utility software installed on any modern PC.

In 2018 it's a completely useless metric to assess the quality of a virtual instrument. If the installation package would grow by factor ten from 40 to 400 MB improving the sound from virtual "almost piano" to virtual piano. I would take that any day. I have 500 GB of SSD space and many TBs of hard drive space to spare.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: CyberGene] #2757430
08/10/18 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I didn't say it's a sampled piano, you're quoting me wrong.

Sorry if I do that.

Originally Posted by CyberGene

It's this kind of ad hominem sarcasm that got you banned last time, do you remember?

Yeah, I remember, it was hard for 30 days, but your arrogance is still here. It is not hard to respect art.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
They have never answered about how they technology works and I've asked them many times. As a matter of fact I have exchanged communications with Philippe Guillaume, I've been part of the beta testing team and I have a deep respect for his knowledge but that doesn't mean he should explain their technology to anybody outside Modartt.

Deeply sorry for my mistake, but from your posts I cannot see that respect. There is no reason for me to defend Modartt in any case, but can`t stand negativity without reason.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: JoeT] #2757434
08/10/18 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by slobajudge
The solution without ignorance is simple: Ask them. It will be really good to know how they do it.

Why don't you answer the question, why I need a virtual piano, which download size is smaller than a typical phone app?

Because I see no reason why the install size of Ptq has to be a fraction of my Intel Wi-Fi driver, which takes around 400 MB. And don't let me start on web browsers or other utility software installed on any modern PC.

In 2018 it's a completely useless metric to assess the quality of a virtual instrument. If the installation package would grow by factor ten from 40 to 400 MB improving the sound from virtual "almost piano" to virtual piano. I would take that any day. I have 500 GB of SSD space and many TBs of hard drive space to spare.

I am no against, anything that will improve piano I vote for. I am with you. At the moment my favorite piano is Emberton Steinway with 180gb.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757436
08/10/18 02:38 PM
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Well, count me as indifferent because I don't really care how it works.
I only care about how it sounds.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757439
08/10/18 02:41 PM
08/10/18 02:41 PM
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Thats is a lot to digest in a thread just about comparing two audio samples.
That are quite far reaching interpretations of the notion of "audio compression".

@Cybergene,
You are reaching some hefty conclusions, deduced from "no knowledge" and "no time to study" a patent description, be it applicable or not.

I do not see any "fanatical defense" by "avid proponents", but there are quite a lot of satisfied Pianoteq users, who barely are able to understand that kind of strange criticism.

For me personally Pianoteq just works and it sounds very good for its price. The technology by Pianoteq also seems to be worth a cooperation for quality manufactures of accoustic grand pianos, e.g. Steinway, Grotrian, Blüthner and Steingräber.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: slobajudge] #2757441
08/10/18 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by slobajudge
... but your arrogance is still here. It is not hard to respect art.
...
from your posts I cannot see that respect. There is no reason for me to defend Modartt in any case, but can`t stand negativity without reason.


You seem to mistake criticism for disrespect. Besides, even if you think I am arrogant and have no respect of anything you like, you need to report me if you think it's against the rules.

Anyway, I've always had my arguments when criticizing Pianoteq. And sorry, but software is not art per se. It's just a software and no software is perfect. I don't have to show respect for software, especially when I find faults in it.


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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: JoeT] #2757443
08/10/18 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT

Why don't you answer the question, why I need a virtual piano, which download size is smaller than a typical phone app?
....

Because it is not topic of this thread. I'd suggest you create another thread for this topic.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: lophiomys] #2757445
08/10/18 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys

@Cybergene,
You are reaching some hefty conclusions, deduced from "no knowledge" and "no time to study" a patent description, be it applicable or not.

I have clearly stated that's the case. It's a disclaimer of sort. If you believe I am wrong, please feel free to correct me based on the patent document, not on my admittance I might be wrong.

Originally Posted by lophiomys

I do not see any "fanatical defense" by "avid proponents"

I was referring to some other threads in the past, including ones where slobajudge was using insults against me and other forum members which ultimately led to him being banned for 30 days.

P.S. You're also quoting me wrong. I didn't say I have "no time". I said I didn't have enough time for detailed review but I still had time to go through the patent. And I didn't say I have "no knowledge". I said it requires mathematical knowledge. I have a degree in physics and have had many separate mathematics course including calculus, differential equations, computational physics, numerical analysis. I haven't practiced that so I am no the best at understanding that in a blink but it's far from "no knowledge" which I didn't say.

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/10/18 02:58 PM.

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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: lophiomys] #2757447
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
Thats is a lot to digest in a thread just about comparing two audio samples.

That's what we are here for. :-)

Quote
That are quite far reaching interpretations of the notion of "audio compression".

Remember MOD files? They worked by storing audio samples of instruments and reproducing whole pieces by replaying and mixing them at various pitches. A mix of WAVE and MIDI. Reaching impressively low file sizes at reasonably high audio quality in the 1980s already before MP3 audio compression was even considered possible.

This approach could be subsumed under "audio compression" as well, involving a human doing all the work to put the file together. Not that different from what digital instrument makers do.

Quote
I do not see any "fanatical defense" by "avid proponents", but there are quite a lot of satisfied Pianoteq users, who barely are able to understand that kind of strange criticism.

You have to accept the fact, that humans like different things about the rich tone of a concert grand piano. It has something for everyone. And some "modeled" instruments fail to capture what some people like about it.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: lophiomys] #2757448
08/10/18 02:54 PM
08/10/18 02:54 PM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
Originally Posted by JoeT

Why don't you answer the question, why I need a virtual piano, which download size is smaller than a typical phone app?
....

Because it is not topic of this thread. I'd suggest you create another thread for this topic.

I haven't brought up the topic of file size. That was someone else.


Kawai ES100 | Pianoteq 6 | Ivory II American Concert D | Steinberg UR22 | Sennheiser HD595
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: CyberGene] #2757451
08/10/18 02:56 PM
08/10/18 02:56 PM
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Posts: 704
Austria, EU
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lophiomys Offline
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Austria, EU
Cybergene,

Again, both is not topic of this thread here, in which OP has stated a clear and simple question.
Why do you not directly address the forum member of your choice, but use generalising statements instead. Claming and Disclaiming is nothing but a tedious cat and mouse game.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by lophiomys

@Cybergene,
You are reaching some hefty conclusions, deduced from "no knowledge" and "no time to study" a patent description, be it applicable or not.

I have clearly stated that's the case. It's a disclaimer of sort. If you believe I am wrong, please feel free to correct me based on the patent document, not on my admittance I might be wrong.

Originally Posted by lophiomys

I do not see any "fanatical defense" by "avid proponents"

I was referring to some other threads in the past, including ones where slobajudge was using insults against me and other forum members which ultimately led to him being banned for 30 days.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: CyberGene] #2757452
08/10/18 02:57 PM
08/10/18 02:57 PM
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slobajudge Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Besides, even if you think I am arrogant and have no respect of anything you like, you need to report me if you think it's against the rules.

It will ruin my way of existence. Not me.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: lophiomys] #2757456
08/10/18 03:04 PM
08/10/18 03:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,395
Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
Originally Posted by lophiomys
Again, both is not topic of this thread here, in which OP has stated a clear and simple question.
Why do you not directly address the forum member of your choice, but use generalising statements instead.


I was elaborating on someone else posting the patent. You can't simply forbid me from answering someone else's post even if it's offtopic. And it's not offtopic IMO, it's related to comparing a real piano and a modeled piano and we're discussing the way the modeled piano works. It's up to moderators to decide whether that needs to be separated in another thread. I don't believe so.

As to my remark about Pianoteq proponents and their way of defending the software, my apologies. That was probably offtopic indeed.


Soundcloud Profile - solo piano compositions, arrangements, reharms
Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757464
08/10/18 03:46 PM
08/10/18 03:46 PM
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Europe
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mcoll Offline OP
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Europe
Truth be told, I didn't create this topic to say Pianoteq is the best, everything else sucks, nor to encourage the opposite view where Pianoteq sucks, no matter what.

I simply found this interesting, since this is the best A - B comparison I've seen, done by the same pianist. I was curious if people would guess right and what were the impressions (good as well as bad).

I don't think there's a point to such heated talks, since both sampled and modeled approaches have their qualities, and to each their own. But if anybody considers this off topic productive though, so be it.

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757473
08/10/18 04:12 PM
08/10/18 04:12 PM
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Pianoteq could become useless if the sampled pianos worked well. But they don't except a few of them. Even some new sampled pianos don't have half pedaling. I said that before on another thread: I also hear that the sound is a little synthetic on Pianoteq, but it plays so well that I prefer it to the most of sampled pianos. The amount of Gb is not a problem anymore but honestly, except the Garritan CFX, which sampled piano has no flaws with velocity jumps, pedaling, noises...?

Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757483
08/10/18 04:41 PM
08/10/18 04:41 PM
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Posts: 7,231
Northern England.
peterws Offline
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peterws  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 7,231
Northern England.
D'you guys EVER practice? smile


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Acoustic Steinway Model B vs Pianoteq Model B [Re: mcoll] #2757500
08/10/18 05:34 PM
08/10/18 05:34 PM
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mcoll Offline OP
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Guilty as charged...
I probably spend way more time around here than I do practicing, at least lately.

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