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Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: CyberGene] #2755361
08/02/18 10:53 AM
08/02/18 10:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 4
E
Elizabeth R Offline OP
Junior Member
Elizabeth R  Offline OP
Junior Member
E

Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 4
Hello! Sorry for my absence, and thus delay in my response. I need to figure out how to get email updates when someone responds...

Thank you all so much for your responses.
To start off, I did a factory reset.

Originally Posted by PossumES8Krome61
I went with the Yamaha P125- i needed a portable in a pinch. After 2 units that didn't work I didnt have time for a third. I tried the Fp30 as well and was frustrated it was heavier and didnt have a lineout. For the type of music I am playing the Yamaha is working for me. Singer songwriter material with heavy bass. However, if you need a non-portable I have had the ES8 for 3 years and love it.

If you are looking for an expressive piano, it might make sense to see if you can exchange your 110 for a second unit.

I am (sometimes) doing similar, singer/songwriter music with left hand octaves carrying the bass. I'm also playing classical music and using chord charts, so a little of everything. I had tried the P125 in the store. The keys seemed a bit heavy and my fingers were oddly sticking to the keys and squeaking (possibly because they hadn't been played enough and natural oils hadn't lessened the effect) All in all, I liked the touch of the Kawai (and Roland) better. As for exchanging, it sounds as if this is a common phenomenon, and thus presumably I would get the same results on another ES110. (This was the main purpose of asking the question, to know whether or not it was common, or a defect in my specific keyboard)

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Taking in mind FP30 has triple sensor keyboard and is cheaper than the ES110, there's no doubt what my recommendation for entry-level pianos would be.

The ES110 comes with a half-pedaling sustain pedal. You have to purchase one separately if you get the FP30, unless you want the weird box one. The prices about even out, and actually, the Kawai ended up being a few dollars cheaper than the FP30 with the DP10 pedal.

Originally Posted by JoeT


1. Layer acoustic piano with something else (say EP) to double polyphony load.
2. Press down the sustain pedal and keep it down the whole time.
3. Play 8 notes (=16 layered) at the same time and repeat them until you hit the polyphony limit (192 notes).

First 12 repetitions sound fine as expected, all notes played at the same time sound at the same time

After more repetitions the ES1x0 runs out of juice and starts delaying new notes, audibly playing your chords arpeggiated in random order.

The effect doesn't reset until you lift the sustain pedal again.

It's clearly the instrument hitting its polyphony limit and struggling at latency-free note-stealing. Nothing a dealer can fix.
I did indeed try this, and had a similar result; the delay started before twelve repetitions, however. I used the default piano and strings. The information you provided was very insightful, thank you.

Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by drewr
is the way you described for recreating this “polyphony limit ..... delay” consistent

Yes, it is consistent. All you need to do is stack up 96+ stereo notes using the sustain pedal in any way imaginable, then play rich chords with both hands.

Once the polyphony limit hits and the note stealing* kicks in, the note processing bottlenecks. With my background I have a pretty good idea what happens inside the instrument, but it's hard to explain to non-technician.

*) kicking out still sounding old notes to make room for new ones

Quote
or in some way practical with respect to the kind of sound /repertoire you like to play or practice?

As I already wrote, nothing in my practice hits the polyphony limit of my ES100.

Changing the pedal cancels all notes and resets/prevents the effect, so does waiting until the sustained notes expire.
I concur, yes, it's consistent. In my specific case, for a certain song, I was playing the electric guitar part (which was mainly repeating notes) while playing the rest of the chord (repeatedly) in the right hand, and repeating octaves in the left. The chord was held out for 6 measures and I was pedaling, but only half lifting it occasionally. Right as I switched to the other chord, the new left hand octave came out weird. (For those of you wondering, we don't have an electric guitarist on a worship team I'm on, so those parts fall to the keyboardist)

Originally Posted by drewr
Originally Posted by CyberGene
The OP speaks about playing octaves, not hitting the polyphony limit with intentionally intensive playing. So, this situation still needs clarification and I don't see any given. ....


My second reply and questions therein were mainly due to respect for the OP and her desire to identify and resolve whatever problem she’s having. What JoeT can predictably reproduce is obviously a similar phenom but different enough for me to wonder if what he knows & has heard/seen is due to the same cause as what Elizabeth has experienced .... be it, potentially, “bad batch” .....”older tone generator” or the like? Secondly, as a novice piano player, I was sort of wondering out loud, with respect to the subjective nature of “musicality”, is it usual to find players that regularly enjoy the sound produced by keeping the sustain pedal down for prolonged periods while constantly playing layered 6 or 8 finger chords?
Hopefully the clarification you needed was given. I did think I had heard it while playing measures 18-19 of Rondo Capriccioso (Mendelssohn), but it could have been that because I was still learning it, I was the one messing up. Although there are a lot of notes in those measures, and if I was only half-lifting the pedal, the notes might have all stacked up the polyphony and thus produced the delay. (I was having a hard time replicating this specific occurrence)
Originally Posted by drewr
At my first look, this pretty much mirrors my thoughts regarding the original post. On first reading and reply, I mainly focused on the OP’s description in the main paragraph but did wonder why the closing paragraph mentioned the possibility of the pedal being part of the problem.
I was offering ideas when I had mentioned the pedal, hoping that maybe it was a problem with a $40 pedal instead of a $730 keyboard.
I believe the delay typically happened right around the time I would lift it (from my knowledge now, that was probably right after maxing the polyphony...?).
Originally Posted by drewr
Be this as it may, there seems to be more than one owner who has experienced some sort of problem related to delayed or missing sound/notes.

And, yes, that seems to be the general consensus, so I'm thinking of keeping the ES110 because the delay doesn't interfere too much with usual playing, and I don't like the other, similar, keyboards as much as the Kawai.

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Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: Elizabeth R] #2755531
08/02/18 10:18 PM
08/02/18 10:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,001
Chicago
J
jjo Offline
1000 Post Club Member
jjo  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,001
Chicago
As I understand the issue, assuming you layer two sounds, you need to play over 95 notes without once lifting the pedal in order to trigger this problem. I'm a happy ES110 owner, and, frankly, I'd consider this "problem" a good feature because if I heard some of the delay, it would sure as heck show that I should be changing the pedal more frequently!

Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: Elizabeth R] #2755539
08/02/18 11:37 PM
08/02/18 11:37 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 357
North of Los Angeles
L
Learux Online content
Full Member
Learux  Online Content
Full Member
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 357
North of Los Angeles
I agree with jjo, If this is fixed by lifting the pedal then this is pretty much not an issue. Don't expect a DP to behave in the same way as an acoustic when staggering notes like that.


If this happens during regular playing this would be an issue.


Running arpeggios with sustain pedal hitting max polyphony. good job you just found the instrument's limitations.


Last edited by Learux; 08/02/18 11:42 PM.


Casio GP-400
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Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: Elizabeth R] #2755551
08/03/18 02:20 AM
08/03/18 02:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 145
Europe
M
Manolios Offline
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Manolios  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 145
Europe
I wouldn’t blame the instrument for this behavior, I’d reconsider my pedalling technique, if I was you.


Yamaha C3 | CP4 | Sauter Modell 108
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Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: Elizabeth R] #2755581
08/03/18 06:57 AM
08/03/18 06:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 780
Finland
C
clothearednincompo Online content
500 Post Club Member
clothearednincompo  Online Content
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 780
Finland
I would blame the instrument, if it delays new notes instead of dropping old/lower prioritized ones.

Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: clothearednincompo] #2755612
08/03/18 10:01 AM
08/03/18 10:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,748
Europe
JoeT Offline
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JoeT  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,748
Europe
Originally Posted by jjo
As I understand the issue, assuming you layer two sounds, you need to play over 95 notes without once lifting the pedal in order to trigger this problem.

It's 48 layered notes with stereo samples (which the ES100/ES110 uses).

Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
I would blame the instrument, if it delays new notes instead of dropping old/lower prioritized ones.

It drops old notes just fine, however it doesn't do it fast enough ("real time"), before playing the new one. My conjecture would be that it takes too long to search the 192 slots for picking the right note to drop, especially if you just queued 6-10 (x2 when layered) new notes to play at the same time.

Playing at polyphony limit was a regular occurrence on older instruments with 32 to 128 polyphony, so clever note stealing algorithms were essential. You don't just drop the oldest note or a random one, the piano has to pick the right one, the one you can't hear anymore. I think the note stealing works in my ES100, as I could tell any notes dropping out despite reaching the polyphony limit, it's just not fast enough.

Would be interesting to test other instruments like the CN37 or ES8 for this issue, how more advanced tone generators have improved.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: JoeT] #2755722
08/03/18 05:21 PM
08/03/18 05:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 337
Sao Paul, Brazil
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EVC2017 Offline
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EVC2017  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 337
Sao Paul, Brazil
Originally Posted by JoeT
Would be interesting to test other instruments like the CN37 or ES8 for this issue, how more advanced tone generators have improved.


I was wondering about ES8 having this issue. I will test it some time and post my findings (if no other owner does it before me).


Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
Re: Kawai ES110 delayed sound problem [Re: Elizabeth R] #2827668
03/16/19 06:52 PM
03/16/19 06:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1
V
vannix Offline
Junior Member
vannix  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1
Hello guys sorry to resurrect this thread, but I’m going to buy this piano and wanted to know if anyone else had experience with this issue... I’m mainly going to use it to play chords and arpeggios as accompaniment, the bad thing is that the es110 isn’t updatable (and Kawai maybe could manage to let users update it via Bluetooth after completely downloading the update file inside the DP memory)

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