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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: AWilley] #2755286
08/01/18 10:52 PM
08/01/18 10:52 PM
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Musicdude Offline
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Originally Posted by AWilley
Originally Posted by Musicdude

How many notes does EPT measure, to generate a tuning curve?

As many as you want. At least 3.

Originally Posted by Musicdude

Is it like the Cs and Fs in six octaves, like in Tunelab? Or is it every single note, like
in Dirk's or Entropy? Can the number of measured notes be modified by the user?

I will usually begin my tuning by taking some quick samples like in TuneLab. I usually use a few octaves of A's and D#'s, though C's and F's work as well. Some users will "lock" the inharmonicity (using the "ear" button on the right) after taking these measurements and tune the piano, making it function very similarly to TuneLab. Others (including me) leave the inharmonicity measurements unlocked for the entire tuning, meaning that the program will constantly be measuring inharmonicity and slightly updating the tuning curve as you go. If you are tuning the piano in two passes (pitch raise, tuning) this isn't a problem as any later changes to the tuning curve will be very small. I basically tune all my pianos in two passes: even if a pitch raise isn't necessary I still run through all the notes to touch up any outliers before doing the actual tuning.

Originally Posted by Musicdude

Is there a split-scale mode in EPT, for spinets, like Tunelab has?

Hmm. I'm not sure what that is. I don't think so.


Ok, updating the inharmonicity as you go sounds like a good idea. But if you are encouraging people to always make two passes, then there really isn't any
time advantage over measuring all the notes at first, like they do with Dirk's or Entropy. If you are only tuning your own pianos, or you have solid repeat
customers, then measuring all the notes on a piano only has to be done once. But if you have lots of new customers, only C's and F's in Tunelab will obviously
be faster, but perhaps not as accurate.

Look here for the split-scale explanation:

http://tunelab-world.com/TuneLab%20Piano%20Tuner%20manual.pdf

The last two pages, Chapter 10.


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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755287
08/01/18 11:09 PM
08/01/18 11:09 PM
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Split-scale is probably a good idea when there just isn't enough data collected from the piano... It is a way to give the software some information about where the break occurs! If the software collects the info, there isn't any need to tell it where the breaks occur.

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755322
08/02/18 05:54 AM
08/02/18 05:54 AM
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Scherbakov Alex Offline
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Thanks for the answer!
The logic of the decision regarding the longitudinal regime is clear and I agree with it.
I'm glad that the brightness-volume dependence will be in the future)
Strings with overtones that do not match the mathematical model apparently require a special and creative solution. The last tool that I was caught with "weirdness" was set up with inaccuracies. Here's the file:

File Easy Tuner

The A-dur sounded dirty, the simultaneous queries H1-F#2-H2-F#3 - very floating. Although the chromatic sequences of the intervals were fairly uniform (if memory serves me right). What could you advise in this case? To focus on stopping the 2nd and 3rd overtone on the phase display?
Perhaps specifying the volume with the help of brightness will make a more accurate selection of the ring for stopping.

Last edited by Scherbakov Alex; 08/02/18 05:56 AM.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Scherbakov Alex] #2755339
08/02/18 08:59 AM
08/02/18 08:59 AM
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AWilley Offline

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@Alex, the Dropbox link in your post above isn't working for me. It just loads a blank page and there's no download.


Anthony Willey, RPT
PianoMeter
Willey Piano Tuning
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755341
08/02/18 09:25 AM
08/02/18 09:25 AM
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Scherbakov Alex Offline
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Originally Posted by AWilley
@Alex, the Dropbox link in your post above isn't working for me. It just loads a blank page and there's no download.


I'll just try to insert the link text ..

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gqida53um5hzp83/2018-07-15%201436%20%D0%97%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%20%D0%BA%D1%80%20%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B1%D1%80%D1%8C.etf?dl=0

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755370
08/02/18 11:30 AM
08/02/18 11:30 AM
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Washington State
AWilley Offline

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Alex,
There's not a lot that I can tell you about tuning the different harmonics from that tuning file alone. I was able to extract the inharmonicity and tuning curve data, which I'll plot here:

[Linked Image]

Looking at the inharmonicity there is a lot of unevenness from the notes 21 to 34 (F2 to F#3) making that region hardest to tune. The piano reminds me of poorly scaled spinet/console pianos that have unwound bichords in the tenor section. If I had to guess I would say that the notes 32-34 (E3-F#3) were unwound bi-chords, and that notes 27-31 (B2-D#3) (or H2-D#3) are wound bi-chords above the break. I could be completely wrong of course. The inharmonicity of note 24 (G#2) looks to me like there's a small measurement error, but I can't say for sure.

When you're dealing with rings spinning in different directions another approach is to look at the needle. The movement is a bit jumpy and the response is too slow to use in normal tuning, but it can give you an idea of if you're sharp or flat (and by extension which harmonics would be more helpful to follow). Unlike the spinning phase rings the needle takes into account the loundness of the harmonics it's listening to, giving the louder ones more weight.


Last edited by AWilley; 08/02/18 11:31 AM.

Anthony Willey, RPT
PianoMeter
Willey Piano Tuning
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755401
08/02/18 01:08 PM
08/02/18 01:08 PM
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Scherbakov Alex Offline
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Interesting! This tool, the file I sent, maybe in the past, had a change of strings. In any case, one wound string was wound with a winding in an agrarian. I was surprised. Some of the paired knitted strings differed rather strongly in the inharmonious. Yes .. such a tool ..
Thank you!

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2755495
08/02/18 07:22 PM
08/02/18 07:22 PM
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Would looking at the spectrum analyzer provide some help in choosing which strobe ring to favor?

Also I tend to find from my experience that the third or fourth partials (rings) usually gives the best aural match in the low tenor where I find strobe rings appear to conflict on pianos with scaling challenges.

Sometimes you just have to accept the limitations of the piano, make it the best you can and move on realizing you have made the piano sound as good as possible. I've never had an unhappy customer in taking that approach.


Brent Musgrave
Piano Tuner-Technician
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2755751
08/03/18 08:23 PM
08/03/18 08:23 PM
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Lincoln, NE
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That Guy Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Musicdude

How many notes does EPT measure, to generate a tuning curve? Is it like the Cs and Fs in six octaves, like in Tunelab? Or is it every single note, like
in Dirk's or Entropy? Can the number of measured notes be modified by the user?

Is there a split-scale mode in EPT, for spinets, like Tunelab has?

Sorry if these questions were answered earlier..... grin


I usually just measure EVERY note. Why not? It's so easy to do that you might as well get as much information as you can up front. I also let the app "listen" through the whole tuning and only lock it when I'm finished.

EPT does not have a split-scale mode like TuneLab but it doesn't need it. Split-scale is TuneLabs way of compensating for the crazy inharmonicity on spinets in the break area. EPT copes with spinets very well and doesn't need split-scale mode.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2755948
08/04/18 02:47 PM
08/04/18 02:47 PM
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Washington State
AWilley Offline

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Originally Posted by Musicdude

But if you are encouraging people to always make two passes, then there really isn't any
time advantage over measuring all the notes at first, like they do with Dirk's or Entropy.

I haven't tried Dirk's but my last attempt with Entropy took me about 10 minutes to sample all the notes. Easy usually takes me about 2 minutes, since I don't have to play the notes as long and because it's not a big deal if I don't get a perfect reading here and there. You also don't have to do the top couple of octaves (where inharmonicity isn't measured anyway), but I usually do because I'm touching up outliers as I go. That's only if I'm not doing a pitch raise, which I do for 90% of first-time customers. Anyway I'm not trying to sell you on my software here...I figure people will ultimately use whatever best suits their tuning style, and everybody has a different approach there.

Thanks for the link for split scale. I definitely don't have it in that form (where you enter in the break point). If I notice or suspect a large jump in inharmonicity at the break (read spinets, baby grands, unwound bi-chords...) I just make sure to get good samples of the first few notes on either side of the break.


Anthony Willey, RPT
PianoMeter
Willey Piano Tuning
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Musicdude] #2756009
08/04/18 10:14 PM
08/04/18 10:14 PM
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That Guy Offline OP
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Quote
Ok, updating the inharmonicity as you go sounds like a good idea. But if you are encouraging people to always make two passes, then there really isn't any
time advantage over measuring all the notes at first, like they do with Dirk's or Entropy. If you are only tuning your own pianos, or you have solid repeat
customers, then measuring all the notes on a piano only has to be done once. But if you have lots of new customers, only C's and F's in Tunelab will obviously
be faster, but perhaps not as accurate.


Having used TuneLab for many years I can tell you that EPT is much faster to use. Here's the deal...With TuneLab you play a note and it processes it, then gives you a page to see what you measured, then you accept those measurements. Probably 2 or 3 steps you go through for each note. (I haven't used TuneLab in quite a while so I'm just going by memory here) But with EPT you simply play the note and it measures it almost instantly. Therefore you can go through the whole piano in about 60 seconds and you have a "map" in front of you clearly showing where the piano is at and where you need to go. With EPT I probably shaved off at least 15 minutes from my tuning time.

I haven't found it necessary to make a second pass with EPT. Having measured the whole piano to begin with, it's accurate.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2756095
08/05/18 11:05 AM
08/05/18 11:05 AM
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Robert Scott Offline
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Just to clarify, there are two kinds of "measurements" in TuneLab. One is the inharmonicity measurement that is normally done for only 5 or 6 notes when making a new tuning. The other is the "pre-measurements" that are done only for pitch-raises. These pre-measurements are done for many more notes, but only take 1 second per note and are only needed for pitch-raises. We do not recommend measuring "every note" for inharmonicity because inharmonicity follows a pattern that is fairly well-defined by knowing only 5 or 6 notes.


Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Robert Scott] #2756111
08/05/18 01:21 PM
08/05/18 01:21 PM
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I have been using TuneLab for years, and just as Robert has described for both the 6 notes measured for a new tuning, and the methodology for pitch raises. The measurements for pitch raises takes me maybe 2 minutes or so, the measures for a new tuning maybe a minute. I don't begrudge the two minutes or so for pitchraises; it is so much more accurate than my long used aural methods.

I have not used EPT, but I find TuneLab more than satisfactory.

Will Truitt


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2756159
08/05/18 07:16 PM
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Yes, I think the way I worded it made it sound like TuneLab was inferior to EPT and I didn't mean it that way. But, I have found EPT to be much faster in taking initial inharmonicity readings. I simply choose to play most every note not because EPT needs it but that way I have a visual map of where the piano is at and where it needs to go. On the main page at the bottom there's a screen that shows the calculated tuning curve with blue dots showing where the pitch of each note is at and of course as you begin tuning the dots align closer to the tuning curve.

TuneLab is wonderful software and certainly, if it's working well for you, there's no need to change.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763189
09/03/18 05:36 PM
09/03/18 05:36 PM
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There's an update available for the beta EPT users. One of the updates involves weighted measurements for the inharmonicity readings. I'm hoping Anthony can expound a bit more about it on this forum.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763293
09/04/18 07:40 AM
09/04/18 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by That Guy
There's an update available for the beta EPT users. One of the updates involves weighted measurements for the inharmonicity readings. I'm hoping Anthony can expound a bit more about it on this forum.

Scott,

I too am a beta user and have updated but where do I find the change you mentioned? Also have you been able to open the beta app in an additional Android device. I have it working on my phone but on also installing it on my Android tablet, despite Platstore saying "you are a beta user' the app on my tablet is not a beta version.

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Bl├╝thner Model A
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763403
09/04/18 03:38 PM
09/04/18 03:38 PM
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I think I need to write up an explanation to put on my website for the inharmonicity weight function. It's actually not as big a deal as it sounds. It was meant to address an issue that Scherbakov Alex brought up here last month...that the inharmonicity model used in calculating the tuning is sometimes far enough away from the actual inharmonicity of some notes that when those notes are in tune you have some strobe rings slowly spinning left, some standing still, and some slowly spinning right.

I'll illustrate what I mean with the following image that I made by using (imperfectly measured) inharmonicity data from a Lester spinet piano:
[Linked Image]
In Black, you have the measured inharmonicity (black dots) and the "best fit" curve (black line) that is used for notes where inharmonicity hasn't been measured. Then, in Blue, Green, and Red, you have the inharmonicity that we use to actually calculate the tuning, which is a weighted average of the actual measured data and the best fit curve. Looking at the black dots, you can see that there is a jump in inharmonicity around notes 34-35 (lowest plainwire strings probably). The Blue (default) line does an OK job of capturing this, but it's not perfect. Raising the "weight factor" to 0.95 (red) does a better job of capturing the jump, but it also increases the error due to two bad inharmonicity measurements in the Treble (notes 62 & 67). On the other hand, lowering the "weight factor" brings all the notes closer to the best fit curve.

The next image shows how these changes in inharmonicity weighting affect the tuning curve.
[Linked Image]
You can see that the blue (default) and red (high weight) curves tune notes 34-35 more flat than the green (low weight) curve. Their higher inharmonicity means the upper harmonics will trend sharp, so to counter this you set the fundamental flat so the harmonics will be in tune. However, the red line in particular is tuning notes 62 and 67 sharp to counter what it thinks is low inharmonicity, and it's tuning notes 81 & 86 (related to 62 & 67 via perfect 12th) flat to compensate for the (flat) upper harmonics of 62 & 67.

These differences aren't quite as big as they look on the tuning curve; when you look at the frequencies of the actual harmonics you're tuning most of the differences are smaller than 1 cent.
[Linked Image]

The takeaway from all this is that if you want to raise the weight to get tunings better tailored to the oddities of your piano's scale, you should keep an eye on the inharmonicity graph to make sure there aren't errors there that will affect your tuning.


Anthony Willey, RPT
PianoMeter
Willey Piano Tuning
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763438
09/04/18 05:33 PM
09/04/18 05:33 PM
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Does anyone use an external microphone with their smartphone or tablet, for better frequency pickup?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763459
09/04/18 06:24 PM
09/04/18 06:24 PM
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I have a flat-response mic that I used for a while with Verituner - inconclusive results.

I should probably try again with EPT to see if I can notice a graphical difference in any of the inharmonicity measuring.

Ron Koval

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2763483
09/04/18 09:46 PM
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Thanks Anthony!


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
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