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Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2669293
08/19/17 04:57 PM
08/19/17 04:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 158
AZ
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krikorik Offline
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In my opinion you need a difference of around 10 years to get an appreciable difference to what you have today. I have the MP11 and the keyboard is like the one of a piano, what else do you want for the keyboard? Sure they will implement at some point a new revision of MIDI but not soon enough. The sound is good but is far away from the nuances of an AP as with any other DP out there. For more realistic sound I'd wait another 10 years. The customer service from Kawai is exceptional and well above the average company.

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Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2669352
08/20/17 03:21 AM
08/20/17 03:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,346
Sofia, Bulgaria
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CyberGene Offline
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Sofia, Bulgaria
They have the technology to use full non-looped samples with high number of layers per key in a digital piano, so we do not need to wait 10 years for that. In fact they could have implemented it years ago.

Last edited by CyberGene; 08/20/17 04:55 AM.

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Currently: Kawai ES7 -> Garritan CFX
Previously: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100
Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2754519
07/29/18 12:14 PM
07/29/18 12:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 142
Vancouver, BC
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NormB Offline
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Vancouver, BC
Well, here we are in mid-2018 and there's no MP12 to be seen on the horizon. Any rumors out there?

Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2754552
07/29/18 04:23 PM
07/29/18 04:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 168
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Tom Fort Offline
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Well, the MP11SE came out and seems to either just be arriving to dealers or not yet available. As a spec bump to an existing model, how much time will that extend the lifespan of the MP11/MP11SE, one to three years I'd guess. Does Kawai have a history of spec bumps rather than full model successors to give us any clues?

For folks wondering about next-generation MIDI, that actually has been partly announced with important new developments such as MIDI-CI and MIDI-MPE:
https://www.midi.org/articles-old/m...capability-inquiry-midi-ci-specification

MIDI-CI was adopted in January 2018 and paves the way for a next-generation MIDI protocol to be developed in 2018, according to the press release. I'd think any new keyboard announced at winter NAMM 2019 would either have a draft version of the protocol or be able to be upgraded to work with it when it does get approved. I'd expect some news re. next-generation MIDI at winter NAMM 2019 in January.

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Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2754559
07/29/18 05:21 PM
07/29/18 05:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 408
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hag01 Offline
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I hope they will manufacture some adapter for us with our old keyboards, so we won't have to upgrade immediately to a new keyboard because of the release of the new MIDI protocol.
I recieved my MP11SE three days ago so I will be really sad if an MP12 will emerge soon.

Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: hag01] #2754574
07/29/18 06:40 PM
07/29/18 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 168
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Tom Fort Offline
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I assume that next-generation will ride over USB, which all modern keyboards support, so no adapter for the connector should be required. Not so sure about over 5-pin MIDI cables, but I guess we'll find out in time. The MIDI-CI calls for fallback to MIDI 1.0 if both sides don't support it, so nothing should be left behind.

Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2754583
07/29/18 07:07 PM
07/29/18 07:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,348
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Online content
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Kawai James  Online Content
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,348
Hamamatsu, Japan
hag01, congrats on your new MP11SE!

I would be interested to read your thoughts about this instrument, especially compared to the VPC1 that you previously (still?) owned. Perhaps you could start a new thread, or post in one of your previous threads?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2754644
07/30/18 02:47 AM
07/30/18 02:47 AM
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Posts: 408
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hag01 Offline
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Kawai James, thank you.
Just wait a little bit, I barely played on it yet.

Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: CyberGene] #2754661
07/30/18 05:10 AM
07/30/18 05:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 228
The Netherlands
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pianistje Offline
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
They have the technology to use full non-looped samples with high number of layers per key in a digital piano, so we do not need to wait 10 years for that. In fact they could have implemented it years ago.

They had it in the DP-1 that never materialised, but i had the pleasure to briefly engage with at the Frankfurther Messe years ago. A truly phenomenal sounding digital piano....... miles ahead soundwise compared to the MP8 2 they had to offer during that period, althaugh both had the same action.
It was streaming from a conventional harddisc which presented to many reliabilty issues in a hardware product.
I can understand that, but both Korg and Kurzweil showed in recent years that multiple gigabytes and hardware can be extremely solid.

What surprises me most is that Kawai have settled for a modest sampleset + minimal PM in their digital piano’s.
Of course i understand every explaination from a marketing perspective.
But from a pure ‘exclusive A company ’ perspective i don’t..
They have the Shigeru line that 99% of the pianists cannot afford and when blindfolded couldn’t really pick over other brand new quality Kawai’s without the ‘Shigeru’ nametag.

It should be Kawai’s goal to make a digital that represents their best concert grand , in the best possible way in their digital piano line.
I felt that way when playing the DP-1 at the time,...... and raved about it wherever i could.
Now i rave about some software piano’s instead.

Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Sedat Karahan] #2754745
07/30/18 12:21 PM
07/30/18 12:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 511
Virginia, USA
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Virginia, USA
These companies invest a lot into their R&D and production. Many times the issue is getting return on investment for the current technology that they have. The digital piano market is small relative to other products. So it takes a while to get maximum use out of what they have. Thus the incremental changes to existing models.
But you are correct, it does not take a stretch of the imagination to just take what they had implemented in the DP-1 and just use a more reliable solid state disk or flash memory. But what you imagine possible and reality may have issues unknown to anyone outside the company. When my Kurzweil boots it loads 2GB of samples into available internal memory. I happen to know from someone who worked for them that the technology was in design about 5 years prior to it first being sold in a board. Kawai could do the same but it isn't just storage. There are the special DSP chips they use, the firmware for these chips. Issues come into play such as "how much memory can they access?". There are a lot of variables because most of these companies have their proprietary chips that were designed to get the best sounds at that time. The same goes with computers, older computer cpus cannot access as much memory and disk space as newer chips. I'm sure there are designs being pursued right now that are far superior to what they produce now. Getting them out of design into actual production is a lot harder than most people realize. Making a prototype and shopping it at NAMM is great but if it never makes it to production or take years to release it doesn't help the companies reputation. Case in point, the Walorf Zarenbourg electric piano was a every show Waldorf had a booth at for 5 years before they actually shipped any. By then it was kind of a running joke which would come first the apocalypse or the Zarenbourg.

Last edited by Kbeaumont; 07/30/18 12:23 PM.

A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Kawai MP12 [Re: Kbeaumont] #2754767
07/30/18 02:03 PM
07/30/18 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 228
The Netherlands
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pianistje Offline
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Originally Posted by Kbeaumont
These companies invest a lot into their R&D and production. Many times the issue is getting return on investment for the current technology that they have. The digital piano market is small relative to other products. So it takes a while to get maximum use out of what they have. Thus the incremental changes to existing models.
But you are correct, it does not take a stretch of the imagination to just take what they had implemented in the DP-1 and just use a more reliable solid state disk or flash memory. But what you imagine possible and reality may have issues unknown to anyone outside the company. When my Kurzweil boots it loads 2GB of samples into available internal memory. I happen to know from someone who worked for them that the technology was in design about 5 years prior to it first being sold in a board. Kawai could do the same but it isn't just storage. There are the special DSP chips they use, the firmware for these chips. Issues come into play such as "how much memory can they access?". There are a lot of variables because most of these companies have their proprietary chips that were designed to get the best sounds at that time. The same goes with computers, older computer cpus cannot access as much memory and disk space as newer chips. I'm sure there are designs being pursued right now that are far superior to what they produce now. Getting them out of design into actual production is a lot harder than most people realize. Making a prototype and shopping it at NAMM is great but if it never makes it to production or take years to release it doesn't help the companies reputation. Case in point, the Walorf Zarenbourg electric piano was a every show Waldorf had a booth at for 5 years before they actually shipped any. By then it was kind of a running joke which would come first the apocalypse or the Zarenbourg.

Fair points about the details most of us ( incl. me) aren’t aware of when developing new techniques and the process of marketing afterwards. Many things could go wrong indeed...

But if an almost bankrupt company with few, but extremely dedicated indviduals (Dave Weiser) are able to go much further than a 64MB-256MB main grand piano sample then a company like Kawai should do nothing less.

Phrases like ‘anechoing chamber’ and advanced turbo ‘harmonic imaging’ have been succesfull for years, but now it doesn’t cut it.
I have always and still praise Kawai for their keybeds and overall quality, but in order to have some above basic controller functions, one has to purchase a unit with full blown rompler sounds that i can only imagine to be somewhat usefull in a live setting, because details like multiple mic settings, real Una Corda samples etc. don’t matter much in a live setting.
Since the MP 8,10,11 etc. are really heavy, most are used at home for practice or studio controller and after the user learns about vst’s the internal sounds are bypassed most of the time.

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