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Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2752766 07/20/18 10:23 AM
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Is this so hard for a piano? If so, then why is it that my old laptop could run VSTs (using your grandmother's 5400 RPM drive) without problems?

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Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2752774 07/20/18 10:53 AM
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How hard for the piano ? This depends of the piano makers and if he want a 0 latency piano. Yamaha has developped for the Montage and the Genos a chip which can stream samples through a ONFI interface. The job is done and it just has to be ported to orher instruments.

For other makers, we have the Kronos : a PC like architecture, then Korg has used a Linux architecture. But I suppose the latency to be higher.

The flash latency can be avoided with a read ahead implementation : it should not be difficult to do. But I have to admit some Flash (Nand ? Nor?) have a very low latency. I have seen on eBay, iofusion cards are sold 1€/1GB... more expensive than SATA SSD but not too much if we use few GB.


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Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: Frédéric L] #2752791 07/20/18 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Is this so hard for a piano? If so, then why is it that my old laptop could run VSTs (using your grandmother's 5400 RPM drive) without problems?

Same issue as before. The problem isn't that a hard drive (or NAND flash) is not fast enough, it's that there has typically been no mechanism by which a keyboard can swap data between storage and RAM in real time (it basically has required a computer running a streaming-capable version of Linux, Windows, or OSX). Kurzweil seems to have figured out another way to do it in the Forte, but their approach is patented (Flashplay), so whatever they're doing, no other piano maker can do it exactly like that, either. (Nor do we know whether Flashplay can actually be implemented in something much less expensive.) And now it looks like we can add Yamaha to the list of problem solvers (see below). But regardless (and getting back to what we were talking about in the other thread), you just can't toss cheap NAND flash into an existing design, any more than you can just toss a 5400 RPM drive into an existing design, because again, speed isn't the big concern here.

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Yamaha has developped for the Montage and the Genos a chip which can stream samples through a ONFI interface. The job is done and it just has to be ported to orher instruments.

Thanks for the pointer about the Montage, which I had never looked into in detail. Interesting info at:
http://orgaforum.ro/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?8964

Some of that info is above my pay grade, but they seem to have found another way to skin this cat. This is a new approach for Yamaha, since the previous way they handled larger (and customizable) data sets was through NOR flash, which, again, is very expensive (and is what Nord uses). Check the 1 GB flash card for the Yamaha MOXF, Motif XF, and Tyros 4, it sells for $270. For ONE gigabyte. Or $150 for half a gig. (So on the same card, the extra half gig adds $120.)

As for "it just has to be ported to other instruments," I'm sure it can be, but I would not assume that such other instruments would necessarily be inexpensive. Because again (getting back to the earlier thread referenced elsewhere, and what I just said to MMM), it's not a matter of just tossing cheap NAND flash into a low-cost design, there's a lot of other stuff going on in there to make it work, as you can see from that link.

Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The flash latency can be avoided with a read ahead implementation : it should not be difficult to do. But I have to admit some Flash (Nand ? Nor?) have a very low latency. I have seen on eBay, iofusion cards are sold 1€/1GB... more expensive than SATA SSD but not too much if we use few GB.

NOR flash is basically equivalent to RAM, having effectively zero latency. But it is also quite expensive. Nothing like 1€/1GB. As for a read-ahead implementation for NAND, you are again now talking about needing a mechanism (hardware and OS) by which data can be swapped from storage to RAM in real-time.

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2752794 07/20/18 12:03 PM
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« As for "it just has to be ported to other instruments," I'm sure it can be, but I would not assume that such other instruments would necessarily be inexpensive. ». The ONFI interface of the Montage chip (SWP70) is made for NAND flash : not too expensive I suppose. The Motif used on older chip.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 07/20/18 12:04 PM.

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Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: Frédéric L] #2752796 07/20/18 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
« As for "it just has to be ported to other instruments," I'm sure it can be, but I would not assume that such other instruments would necessarily be inexpensive. ». The ONFI interface of the Montage chip (SWP70) is made for NAND flash : not too expensive I suppose. The Motif used on older chip.

Yes, the NAND makes it more cost effective than the previous NOR approach. But again (referencing that link), there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there too, making it work. Maybe it can make for a much cheaper, high GB piano, maybe it can't. I'm just saying, I don't know, and I don't think any of us has enough knowledge to assume it will necessarily be so.

BTW, does anyone know what the boot time is on a Montage?

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2752812 07/20/18 02:21 PM
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Or what the boot time on a Kronos2 is?

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2752826 07/20/18 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by xorbe
Or what the boot time on a Kronos2 is?

Boot time is about 90 sec on my Kronos 2. Can be longer if you have lots of really huge samples to preload.

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: ando] #2753110 07/22/18 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
Originally Posted by xorbe
Or what the boot time on a Kronos2 is?

Boot time is about 90 sec on my Kronos 2. Can be longer if you have lots of really huge samples to preload.

Mine is about 1:45 and I don't think I have anything loading but the stock sample set. I think it's faster than the original Kronos, though.

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2753131 07/22/18 01:04 PM
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According to https://yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9156 the Montage boot in 16 seconds. However it is has quite more function than a digital piano.


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Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2753217 07/22/18 07:43 PM
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Aren't we supposed to be musicians here? Why are we making instrument choices based on the technology inside instead of sound and playability?

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: upbeat] #2753224 07/22/18 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by upbeat
Aren't we supposed to be musicians here?


You would think so, however it seems that PianoWorld largely attracts electronics engineers, computer programmers, and statistics analysts who also occasionally dabble with pianos. wink

Cheers,
James
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Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: Kawai James] #2753284 07/23/18 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by upbeat
Aren't we supposed to be musicians here?


You would think so, however it seems that PianoWorld largely attracts electronics engineers, computer programmers, and statistics analysts who also occasionally dabble with pianos. wink

Cheers,
James
x


You know, despite the tong in cheek, you are not too far from the truth. smile

[url=https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/voice-of-the-engineer/4458149/Your-other-hobbies--Engineering-like-][/url] (look at the comments)

Many in this forum are engineers at heart if not de facto. wink


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Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2753287 07/23/18 06:12 AM
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I'm an enginerd.

And not a musician.

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: Kawai James] #2753297 07/23/18 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by upbeat
Aren't we supposed to be musicians here?


You would think so, however it seems that PianoWorld largely attracts electronics engineers, computer programmers, and statistics analysts who also occasionally dabble with pianos. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Guilty as charged :-)

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: xorbe] #2753484 07/24/18 12:48 AM
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Yeah exactly, we have CP5 and 700NX already, was looking for bit of a whiz bang toy. I think it would be the Kronos for me.

Re: 1GB NP4 vs 2GB NS3 wrt Nord Piano Library [Re: Kawai James] #2753500 07/24/18 03:30 AM
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Perhaps this can be tested ...[quote=]... it seems that PianoWorld largely attracts electronics engineers, computer programmers, and statistics analysts who also occasionally dabble with pianos.[/quote]I posted a complete list of Piano World users in this spreadsheet.

Of 89,000 members, 28,000 show their occupation in their profiles.
Here are a few of interest ...
Engineer: . . . . . 1867
Teachers: . . . . . 2815
Piano teachers: . . 1144
Piano tech:. . . . . 928
Retired:. . . . . . 1974


And one "semi-professional clown".

Would anyone like to run a more thorough breakdown?

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