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Tuning with Augmented fourth
#2752984 07/21/18 02:00 PM
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I like to relate my experience with you all here(junior,senior, experienced members). Although I started this tuning course in a school were it was one of the few areas covered in a course tittled Musical instruments repair and construction, MRC. I later took lessons/classes with Randy.In all of this, I never came across it anywhere even in the books I have studied( Reblitz, Travis, John Bishop, Floyd and other articles including those forwarded to me by members of this great platform) that one can use an augmented fourth (aug4) interval to tune after setting the temperament, especially in the treble side.All I do is take an aug 4th and resolve it both outwardly and inwardly then test the newly tuned note with the octave below to see its strech...it works well...I discovered this more than a year ago, possibly being a pianist. Just to share my experience and know if there are people using same technique...thanks

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Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753225 07/22/18 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel Bright
All I do is take an aug 4th and resolve it both outwardly and inwardly then test the newly tuned note with the octave below to see its strech...it works well...I discovered this more than a year ago, possibly being a pianist. Just to share my experience and know if there are people using same technique...thanks



Israel,

Can you detail specifically which notes you are referring to here? For instance, if you were tuning C4-F#4 (an augmented 4th) specifically how would you be doing it? What notes applied?

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753275 07/23/18 03:38 AM
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What I do with C-F# , an aug4 is resolving them outwardly, F# taken as a M7, moving up to G which is the new note to be tuned. The C, which formerly was a fourth to G falls down to B, being the M3 and I will now have a M6 with which I'll test and check also with the octave of the newly tuned note,G-G. Outward resolution is progressive for tuning new notes, while inward resolution is done to confirm and compare the beatings of M3 and M6.

Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753277 07/23/18 03:52 AM
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Sorry, its a minor sixth, m6 the resolution would bring...a typo error..wanted to edit but was disallowed.so you have B-G as a minor sixth...

Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753309 07/23/18 08:43 AM
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About how you tune -- what do you mean by "resolving" an interval? I came to this work as a very experienced string player and found that my methods and understanding of tuning did not apply to creating a set of tuned notes that would work in all keys for a piano. I'm very curious about what specifically you are listening for. Thank you --


Dorrie Bell
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Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753316 07/23/18 09:09 AM
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OK, outward resolution is taking C to B and F# to G, simulating the chord progression of D7 to Gmaj.

And inward resolution is taking C to C# and F# to F, simulating the chord progression of G#7 to C#maj

Are you starting with the aug 4th (tritone) and trying to tune the other notes?


Jeff Deutschle
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Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753322 07/23/18 09:24 AM
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I also am curious as to what is being listened to and what resultant adjustments are being made, and for what reasons. This is definitely a new one for me, but if there is validation I'm all ears.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753329 07/23/18 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I also am curious as to what is being listened to and what resultant adjustments are being made, and for what reasons. This is definitely a new one for me, but if there is validation I'm all ears.

Pwg


Same here. In discovering what Israel is doing it may spark other thoughts, if nothing else.

We may be distracted, though:

Originally Posted by Israel Bright
... one can use an augmented fourth (aug4) interval to tune after setting the temperament, especially in the treble side.All I do is take an aug 4th and resolve it both outwardly and inwardly then test the newly tuned note with the octave below to see its strech. ...



Originally Posted by Israel Bright
What I do with C-F# , an aug4 is resolving them outwardly, F# taken as a M7, moving up to G which is the new note to be tuned. The C, which formerly was a fourth to G falls down to B, being the M3 and I will now have a M6 with which I'll test and check also with the octave of the newly tuned note,G-G. Outward resolution is progressive for tuning new notes, while inward resolution is done to confirm and compare the beatings of M3 and M6.


I think what Israel is doing is letting the tritone lead him to an M3-m6 (8:4!) octave check when resolving outwardly or m6-M3 "sanity" check when resolving inwardly.


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2753353 07/23/18 11:40 AM
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Sounds like it could make for less boring listening on the part of the piano owner, however if I can improve on what I'm doing I am open-minded.

Perhaps a recorded demo would help...yes?

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
P W Grey #2753365 07/23/18 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
<snip>

Perhaps a recorded demo would help...yes?

Pwg



thumb +1

Last edited by kpembrook; 07/23/18 12:38 PM.

Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2754802 07/30/18 04:37 PM
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I guess we are not going to get one...looks like.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2756385 08/07/18 03:40 AM
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I ams really sorry nit to have come up with a practical deminstration on this, I am on break and have little time and access to the piano, however, In case any one intend to demonstrate, here is a guide
Now, this is how it works for me, may be because I play the piano(at least at my own level, in my own way). Lets agree to have tuned the temperament range and are okay and you extend this up to E5, take the A#/Bb4 below, which when paired with the E5 gives you an augmented fourth, although this can be resolved inwardly to give you a M3 in the key of Bmajor, but because you are tuning upward chromatically, you want to resolve the paired note outwardly and therefore, your E5 becomes the leading note to the new note,F5 to be tuned which would move to F (just as you have a t-d in tonic sol-fa) and the A# falls back to A. Remember this A that the A# falls back to is a M3, major third in the key of F, same key the seventh note E (which has been the augmented fourth note, but now a leading note to the new note to be tuned) move up to its tonic. You then have a minor sixth(m6) which is an inversion of a Major sixth (M6)in the new key, F. With this m6, you have the new note F, tuned and test with the octave below for any stretching required(from my experience, little or nothing is required) depending on the situation. Also, check with the fourth ,C&F and the fifth Bb&F., next the newly tuned note, i.e F5, becomes a leading note to F# to which I pair a note below to give me an aug fourth, this time a B which would fall back to Bb and the F rises to F#...this is done chromatically as you ascend, making sure you do the necessary test, including that of octave...

Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2756496 08/07/18 11:43 AM
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I can't seem to follow the discussion to hear it in my head. But a recording really would be useful.

I started out trying to tune with a system of 4ths and 5ths. Never could make it work. But had a friend that seemed to do pretty well with it most of the time.

Certainly willing to listen and learn as I'm able, though, maybe add a new tool to the ol' toolbox.

Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2756504 08/07/18 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Israel Bright
I ams really sorry nit to have come up with a practical deminstration on this, I am on break and have little time and access to the piano, however, In case any one intend to demonstrate, here is a guide
Now, this is how it works for me, may be because I play the piano(at least at my own level, in my own way). Lets agree to have tuned the temperament range and are okay and you extend this up to E5, take the A#/Bb4 below, which when paired with the E5 gives you an augmented fourth, although this can be resolved inwardly to give you a M3 in the key of Bmajor, but because you are tuning upward chromatically, you want to resolve the paired note outwardly and therefore, your E5 becomes the leading note to the new note,F5 to be tuned which would move to F (just as you have a t-d in tonic sol-fa) and the A# falls back to A. Remember this A that the A# falls back to is a M3, major third in the key of F, same key the seventh note E (which has been the augmented fourth note, but now a leading note to the new note to be tuned) move up to its tonic. You then have a minor sixth(m6) which is an inversion of a Major sixth (M6)in the new key, F. With this m6, you have the new note F, tuned and test with the octave below for any stretching required(from my experience, little or nothing is required) depending on the situation. Also, check with the fourth ,C&F and the fifth Bb&F., next the newly tuned note, i.e F5, becomes a leading note to F# to which I pair a note below to give me an aug fourth, this time a B which would fall back to Bb and the F rises to F#...this is done chromatically as you ascend, making sure you do the necessary test, including that of octave...


So you play A#4-E5 and then A4-F5, tuning F5 to A4 and checking with the 4th, 5th and octave below? I see this as a "melodic" tuning - listening to an interval that sounds musical. Much more typical is a "harmonic" tuning - listening to the beating of the partials (harmonics) of an interval. When checking the 4th, 5th and octave, do you then listen for beats?


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2756511 08/07/18 12:48 PM
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I'm sorry to say that all I can get out of it is a few cool intervals to demonstrate while tuning, rather than a tool to refine anything (and a way to keep from getting bored). However, I could be wrong. I have been known to be wrong from time to time, and could be missing something.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2756600 08/07/18 07:13 PM
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I don't think you are missing a thing, Peter...


Jeff Deutschle
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Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
P W Grey #2756636 08/07/18 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I'm sorry to say that all I can get out of it is a few cool intervals to demonstrate while tuning, rather than a tool to refine anything (and a way to keep from getting bored). However, I could be wrong. I have been known to be wrong from time to time, and could be missing something.

Pwg


I was wrong once, myself. I thought I had made a mistake but it turned out I didn't.


laugh crazy laugh


Keith Akins, RPT
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Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: Tuning with Augmented fourth
Israel Bright #2756907 08/08/18 07:21 PM
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🤣🤣🤣

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8

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