Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Tuning with Augmented fourth

I like to relate my experience with you all here(junior,senior, experienced members). Although I started this tuning course in a school were it was one of the few areas covered in a course tittled Musical instruments repair and construction, MRC. I later took lessons/classes with Randy.In all of this, I never came across it anywhere even in the books I have studied( Reblitz, Travis, John Bishop, Floyd and other articles including those forwarded to me by members of this great platform) that one can use an augmented fourth (aug4) interval to tune after setting the temperament, especially in the treble side.All I do is take an aug 4th and resolve it both outwardly and inwardly then test the newly tuned note with the octave below to see its strech...it works well...I discovered this more than a year ago, possibly being a pianist. Just to share my experience and know if there are people using same technique...thanks

Israel,

Can you detail specifically which notes you are referring to here? For instance, if you were tuning C4-F#4 (an augmented 4th) specifically how would you be doing it? What notes applied?

Pwg

What I do with C-F# , an aug4 is resolving them outwardly, F# taken as a M7, moving up to G which is the new note to be tuned. The C, which formerly was a fourth to G falls down to B, being the M3 and I will now have a M6 with which I'll test and check also with the octave of the newly tuned note,G-G. Outward resolution is progressive for tuning new notes, while inward resolution is done to confirm and compare the beatings of M3 and M6.

Sorry, its a minor sixth, m6 the resolution would bring...a typo error..wanted to edit but was disallowed.so you have B-G as a minor sixth...

About how you tune -- what do you mean by "resolving" an interval? I came to this work as a very experienced string player and found that my methods and understanding of tuning did not apply to creating a set of tuned notes that would work in all keys for a piano. I'm very curious about what specifically you are listening for. Thank you --

OK, outward resolution is taking C to B and F# to G, simulating the chord progression of D7 to Gmaj.

And inward resolution is taking C to C# and F# to F, simulating the chord progression of G#7 to C#maj

Are you starting with the aug 4th (tritone) and trying to tune the other notes?

I also am curious as to what is being listened to and what resultant adjustments are being made, and for what reasons. This is definitely a new one for me, but if there is validation I'm all ears.

Pwg

Same here. In discovering what Israel is doing it may spark other thoughts, if nothing else.

We may be distracted, though:






I think what Israel is doing is letting the tritone lead him to an M3-m6 (8:4!) octave check when resolving outwardly or m6-M3 "sanity" check when resolving inwardly.

Sounds like it could make for less boring listening on the part of the piano owner, however if I can improve on what I'm doing I am open-minded.

Perhaps a recorded demo would help...yes?

Pwg

+1

I guess we are not going to get one...looks like.

Pwg

I ams really sorry nit to have come up with a practical deminstration on this, I am on break and have little time and access to the piano, however, In case any one intend to demonstrate, here is a guide
Now, this is how it works for me, may be because I play the piano(at least at my own level, in my own way). Lets agree to have tuned the temperament range and are okay and you extend this up to E5, take the A#/Bb4 below, which when paired with the E5 gives you an augmented fourth, although this can be resolved inwardly to give you a M3 in the key of Bmajor, but because you are tuning upward chromatically, you want to resolve the paired note outwardly and therefore, your E5 becomes the leading note to the new note,F5 to be tuned which would move to F (just as you have a t-d in tonic sol-fa) and the A# falls back to A. Remember this A that the A# falls back to is a M3, major third in the key of F, same key the seventh note E (which has been the augmented fourth note, but now a leading note to the new note to be tuned) move up to its tonic. You then have a minor sixth(m6) which is an inversion of a Major sixth (M6)in the new key, F. With this m6, you have the new note F, tuned and test with the octave below for any stretching required(from my experience, little or nothing is required) depending on the situation. Also, check with the fourth ,C&F and the fifth Bb&F., next the newly tuned note, i.e F5, becomes a leading note to F# to which I pair a note below to give me an aug fourth, this time a B which would fall back to Bb and the F rises to F#...this is done chromatically as you ascend, making sure you do the necessary test, including that of octave...

I can't seem to follow the discussion to hear it in my head. But a recording really would be useful.

I started out trying to tune with a system of 4ths and 5ths. Never could make it work. But had a friend that seemed to do pretty well with it most of the time.

Certainly willing to listen and learn as I'm able, though, maybe add a new tool to the ol' toolbox.

So you play A#4-E5 and then A4-F5, tuning F5 to A4 and checking with the 4th, 5th and octave below? I see this as a "melodic" tuning - listening to an interval that sounds musical. Much more typical is a "harmonic" tuning - listening to the beating of the partials (harmonics) of an interval. When checking the 4th, 5th and octave, do you then listen for beats?

I'm sorry to say that all I can get out of it is a few cool intervals to demonstrate while tuning, rather than a tool to refine anything (and a way to keep from getting bored). However, I could be wrong. I have been known to be wrong from time to time, and could be missing something.

Pwg

I don't think you are missing a thing, Peter...

I was wrong once, myself. I thought I had made a mistake but it turned out I didn't.

🤣🤣🤣

Pwg