Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
99 registered members (anotherscott, bennevis, Alexander Borro, ajames, ALEXANDER DYKER, beeboss, anamnesis, BazC, 26 invisible), 1,206 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
I Suck at Bach #2749454
07/05/18 08:58 AM
07/05/18 08:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
R
RmntcPianoLvr Offline OP
Full Member
RmntcPianoLvr  Offline OP
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
Hi All,

From the title of this post, you probably already know what the gist of this post will be about, but I'll give some context anyways.

So recently I have just finished Chopin's Scherzo 2 after a month and a half of constant practice, and decided that it was finally time to take a break and come back to it some other time. So I decided I would take it easy for the next month or so and learn some smaller and easier pieces. A couple of days ago, I started the Rachmaninoff Prelude Op. 32 No. 5 in G Major, and so far progress on it is going well; I've gotten half the piece memorized, and only the second half the last page needs significant technical practice at this point. All in all, it's going really well for me.

Now recently, I've been getting more and more into Bach's music, so I thought now would be a good time to try out some Bach again (I hadn't played any in months at this point, because I was too busy riding the Romantic bandwagon, which I decided to jump off of this year). The Invention in E-flat Major (Number 5) sounded nice, so I decided to try it out. Unlike the Rachmaninoff prelude, however, I actually struggled quite a bit with it. It may be because it requires different techniques and styles, not sure, but I've been practicing it for a day or 2 now and I've only gotten the first page up to half speed hands together, and not memorized. So it's clear that I need some work on the Baroque style of playing.

In terms of Bach, how would you recommend I progress forward with his music? The plan I have for myself right now is to learn about half the inventions, then move on to the sinfonias and learn a handful of them, and then start on the WTC and learn a significant number of pieces from there and then finally moving on to whatever else I feel like playing. Any suggestions would be helpful, whether it be technique, interpretation/analysis, or other "routes" you would recommend (though I know that everyone is different and some people just prefer doing whatever sounds good to them, which I'm personally not too big a fan of). Thanks in advanced!

Last edited by RmntcPianoLvr; 07/05/18 08:59 AM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749466
07/05/18 09:19 AM
07/05/18 09:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 479
Rockville, MD
Seeker Offline
Full Member
Seeker  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 479
Rockville, MD
From what you've written, it's my opinion that the problems you are having with playing a Bach 2 Part Invention are mental and musical, not technical. I think it's the polyphony that is difficult for you.

If you were studying with me, I'd have you take a few steps back and have you play some of the Bartok Mikrokosmos Book 1 (transposing to all keys, of course). I'd have you sing one hand while playing the other (not so easy), and then I might have you play some of the Kunz Canons, again transposing, again singing & playing.

At that point, it would be time to start a 2 part Invention, and it's been my experience, that your perceptions would have changed and grown to the point where you could keep two distinct "voices" going at the same time.

Some of the 3 part inventions should follow, and then finally, it's time for the simpler fugues.

One pianist's opinion.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749471
07/05/18 09:50 AM
07/05/18 09:50 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,819
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,819
New York City

Bach's music is so different from Romantic or Classical pieces that it requires quite a bit of practice for most people before it becomes easier. So it's not so surprising that your ability to learn Romantic music is more advanced.

Memorizing Bach is also more difficult for many people compared to music from other periods. I once attended a performance of some of the WTC where conservatory students each played just one P&F. Compared to a recital not including works by Bach, they had a lot more memory problems. It's possible that some of the students had a learned a particular P&F specifically for this concert, but it was still shocking to see how much difficulty students at a major conservatory experienced.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/05/18 09:57 AM.
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: pianoloverus] #2749472
07/05/18 09:53 AM
07/05/18 09:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
R
RmntcPianoLvr Offline OP
Full Member
RmntcPianoLvr  Offline OP
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Seeker
From what you've written, it's my opinion that the problems you are having with playing a Bach 2 Part Invention are mental and musical, not technical. I think it's the polyphony that is difficult for you.

If you were studying with me, I'd have you take a few steps back and have you play some of the Bartok Mikrokosmos Book 1 (transposing to all keys, of course). I'd have you sing one hand while playing the other (not so easy), and then I might have you play some of the Kunz Canons, again transposing, again singing & playing.

At that point, it would be time to start a 2 part Invention, and it's been my experience, that your perceptions would have changed and grown to the point where you could keep two distinct "voices" going at the same time.

Some of the 3 part inventions should follow, and then finally, it's time for the simpler fugues.

One pianist's opinion.


Well what I've been doing for the inventions is play one hand melody while humming the other hand to try to get into the habit of that 2 voice mode. I think it's working so far, but I'll take a look at those Bartok pieces you mentioned. Also I should have specified earlier that I've already learned his Inventions in C Major, D Minor, F Major, G Major, and A Minor (I can still play them to some extent), but I haven't actually learned any new Bach in a while.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Bach's music is so different from Romantic or Classical pieces that it requires specific practice before it becomes easier. So it's not so surprising that your ability to learn Romantic music is more advanced.

Memorizing Bach is also more difficult for many people compared to music from other periods. I once attended a performance of some of the WTC where conservatory students each played just one P&F. They had a lot more memory problems than in a recital of non Bach music.


Well better late than never!

Last edited by RmntcPianoLvr; 07/05/18 09:55 AM.
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749483
07/05/18 10:41 AM
07/05/18 10:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,348
Urbandale, Iowa
S
Steve Chandler Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Steve Chandler  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,348
Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted by RmntcPianoLvr

Well what I've been doing for the inventions is play one hand melody while humming the other hand to try to get into the habit of that 2 voice mode. I think it's working so far, but I'll take a look at those Bartok pieces you mentioned. Also I should have specified earlier that I've already learned his Inventions in C Major, D Minor, F Major, G Major, and A Minor (I can still play them to some extent), but I haven't actually learned any new Bach in a while.

Why not work up the pieces you already know? Get them into pretty good shape that will help adjust your brain for learning new (to you) Bach. Some of the WTC is fairly easy and then some is really quite challenging. Why not start with one of the easier preludes and fugues from Book 1 (C minor?)? It'll give a bit different perspective from the two part inventions.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749485
07/05/18 10:47 AM
07/05/18 10:47 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 609
B
boo1234 Offline
500 Post Club Member
boo1234  Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 609
For me, one of the difficulties of Bach is the way it is notated. You cannot just sight read it on the fly most of the time because you have to figure out which way the notes are distributed between the hands. There need to be more “user friendly,” practical versions in print where the hand distributions are clear.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: boo1234] #2749493
07/05/18 11:22 AM
07/05/18 11:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
R
RmntcPianoLvr Offline OP
Full Member
RmntcPianoLvr  Offline OP
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Originally Posted by RmntcPianoLvr

Well what I've been doing for the inventions is play one hand melody while humming the other hand to try to get into the habit of that 2 voice mode. I think it's working so far, but I'll take a look at those Bartok pieces you mentioned. Also I should have specified earlier that I've already learned his Inventions in C Major, D Minor, F Major, G Major, and A Minor (I can still play them to some extent), but I haven't actually learned any new Bach in a while.

Why not work up the pieces you already know? Get them into pretty good shape that will help adjust your brain for learning new (to you) Bach. Some of the WTC is fairly easy and then some is really quite challenging. Why not start with one of the easier preludes and fugues from Book 1 (C minor?)? It'll give a bit different perspective from the two part inventions.


Because I already have worked those pieces up. When I finish learning a few more inventions, I will go back and run through everything I learned once more before moving on to the Sinfonias. And I think the WTC can wait for now, I want to go one step at a time. Sorry if what I said earlier was confusing, by "some extent" I mean that I can still play them pretty well, just not Glenn Gould level perfect if you know what I mean. But thanks for your suggestions, maybe I'll take up a prelude from the WTC after I finish some more inventions.

Originally Posted by boo1234
For me, one of the difficulties of Bach is the way it is notated. You cannot just sight read it on the fly most of the time because you have to figure out which way the notes are distributed between the hands. There need to be more “user friendly,” practical versions in print where the hand distributions are clear.


I have the Alfred version, where William Palmer gives lots of notes and articulation suggestions as to how to play the inventions. I don't agree with all of them, but it is certainly much better than just the notes by themselves!

Last edited by RmntcPianoLvr; 07/05/18 11:28 AM.
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749502
07/05/18 11:48 AM
07/05/18 11:48 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 58
italy
S
scanderbeg Offline
Full Member
scanderbeg  Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 58
italy
My first piano teacher used to tell me "be scared and respectful the three german B : Bach, Beethoven, Brahms".
Busoni said "Bach is the basement" and Chopin, before his own performances used to play Bach.
quoting Schumann "let Bach be your daily bread". Here in italy we say "upon Bach there is God. And then Bach again."

I don't play excusively baroque music infact my last concert was abot etude tableaux op 39 scriabin 4 sonata and jeaux d'aux ravel, but i play every sunday Bach in a luteran church, from wtc to english suites three part inventions etc.
To me He's like a religion.Once you're deep into him, you'll find that there is no other composer with such a sense of proportion.Then you will find by yourself your personal way to play him, but you have to realize it is not a matter of technique, or fingering or anything like that.
Bach's music is for human brain like reset and powering for a computer: nothing better to start and end your musical day.
Just the effort to give different colors to the different voices of, for example, first fugue of wtc first book, will give you astonishing improvemt in your technique and mental control.(for those who think that we play mainly with our mind".
Practice him with devotion, this is my best advice to you.Good work.

PS: of course this is just my personal opinion.


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749503
07/05/18 11:50 AM
07/05/18 11:50 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 294
Toronto, Canada
T
thepianoplayer416 Online content
Full Member
thepianoplayer416  Online Content
Full Member
T
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 294
Toronto, Canada
I play a lot of church music with a group of people. The music of Bach is like a church hymn with 4-part harmonies. Our group would divide the music into 1st & 2nd violin, viola & cello. When you are playing a hymn, the most important is the top (melody) line and this is usually the only line the congregation will sing along. When you are playing a 4-part hymn on piano, you can usually play a simpler version with L-hand chords and just a 1-line melody.

The music of Bach has at least a 2-part harmony as in a 2-part Invention. In a fugue for organ you can get up to 5 parts including the lower bass you play with your foot. Can't simplify the music. And the parts are not always evenly divided between both hands. Sometimes the part in the middle can get tricky like a viola part going from low notes to very high notes. You have a part that is mostly played with the L and then notes cross over to the R.

Normally I'd break a piece into L & R parts and practice each individually before putting the 2 together. I'd even break a piece into small bits from 2 - 4 measures. Work on the R part and then insert the L. If I get into issues, I'd take the L off and just play the right, then the L separately and try putting the 2 together again. If you see more than 2 parts, you may need to work on each part individually and know each of them before putting them together. Start with very slow practice and gradually get the tempo up.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749570
07/05/18 05:09 PM
07/05/18 05:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 479
Rockville, MD
Seeker Offline
Full Member
Seeker  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 479
Rockville, MD
...forgot another thing that can be useful if you have access to an electronic keyboard, e.g., the Yamaha P-120 that I use for gigging. Set a tempo with a metronome at which you can play one of the voices - RECORD that voice into your keyboard. PLAYBACK that voice, and play the other voice with the other hand. This can help train your ear to listen to both voices.

You could do that with a flash recorder, e.g., Tascam DR-100, like mine, if you don't have access to a recording keyboard.
=========================================

I wonder if you also have difficulty playing 2 vs 3 rhythmic patterns, 4 vs 6, etc? In my experience the cognitive process involved in that sort of playing is similar to playing a 2 part invention in that bifurcating our attention between the hands and parts is necessary to do it.

Last edited by Seeker; 07/05/18 05:13 PM. Reason: Added another thought

Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2749613
07/05/18 10:21 PM
07/05/18 10:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 215
A
allegro_concerto Offline
Full Member
allegro_concerto  Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 215
I would recommend other than inventions, look at French suites, partitas, English suites before doing well tempered clavier. Also I do find it is useful to take a look at some videos of people like Schiff who talked about Bach and did masterclasses with people playing Bach.

I consider myself not a good Bach player as well, but as Bach is fundamental training for all classical pianists, we all have to go through a fair bit of Bach training. I find listening to his other works like cantata, St. Mathew's passion etc... gives you a better understanding of the baroque polyphony style. This is why people above recommend you to sing it out, so you can work out the melodic lines and phrase it more naturally while also playing the other.

I also think reading about Bach (for example: http://www.qub.ac.uk/~tomita/WTC2Psalm/index.html or http://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=musicalofferings) gives you a better understanding of the work in relation to their context and background and what people think about the work. You may not always agree with them, but it can offer some additional insights about the work he did.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: allegro_concerto] #2749643
07/06/18 01:54 AM
07/06/18 01:54 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,497
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,497
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by allegro_concerto

[...]I also think reading about Bach (for example: http://www.qb.ac.uk/~tomita/WTC2Psalm/index.html or http://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=musicalofferings) gives you a better understanding of the work in relation to their context and background and what people think about the work. You may not always agree with them, but it can offer some additional insights about the work he did.


An excellent insight into Bach, his life and the personal circumstances and historical context surrounding many of his compositions is John Eliot Gardiner's book, Music in the Castle of Heaven, Penguin Books, London, 2013. It may not totally satisfy the pianists/keyboardists among us as Gardiner looks at Bach's works from his (Gardiner's) standpoint as a conductor which means that most of the focus is on Bach's orchestral and choral works rather than on his keyboard works.

Nevertheless, it is a very good, very detailed account of Bach's life, and it is worth the attention of anyone wanting to better understand Bach the musician and Bach the person.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: allegro_concerto] #2749722
07/06/18 10:47 AM
07/06/18 10:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 662
Union SC
monkeeys Online content
500 Post Club Member
monkeeys  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 662
Union SC
Originally Posted by allegro_concerto
I

I also think reading about Bach (for example: http://www.qub.ac.uk/~tomita/WTC2Psalm/index.html or http://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=musicalofferings) gives you a better understanding of the work in relation to their context and background and what people think about the work. You may not always agree with them, but it can offer some additional insights about the work he did.


Good read.


Alesis Coda Pro
PianoVideoLessons.com Currently Unit 4
Alfred Adult Piano 1-ebook version
Grateful Dead fan since 1987
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: BruceD] #2749750
07/06/18 11:55 AM
07/06/18 11:55 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,819
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,819
New York City
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by allegro_concerto

[...]I also think reading about Bach (for example: http://www.qb.ac.uk/~tomita/WTC2Psalm/index.html or http://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=musicalofferings) gives you a better understanding of the work in relation to their context and background and what people think about the work. You may not always agree with them, but it can offer some additional insights about the work he did.


An excellent insight into Bach, his life and the personal circumstances and historical context surrounding many of his compositions is John Eliot Gardiner's book, Music in the Castle of Heaven, Penguin Books, London, 2013. It may not totally satisfy the pianists/keyboardists among us as Gardiner looks at Bach's works from his (Gardiner's) standpoint as a conductor which means that most of the focus is on Bach's orchestral and choral works rather than on his keyboard works.

Nevertheless, it is a very good, very detailed account of Bach's life, and it is worth the attention of anyone wanting to better understand Bach the musician and Bach the person.

Regards,
That book got rave reviews, and the pictures alone make it worth buying. I bought it but found it too difficult so I gave it to a friend who conducted church music for 65 years.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750228
07/08/18 01:18 PM
07/08/18 01:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
R
RmntcPianoLvr Offline OP
Full Member
RmntcPianoLvr  Offline OP
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by allegro_concerto
I would recommend other than inventions, look at French suites, partitas, English suites before doing well tempered clavier. Also I do find it is useful to take a look at some videos of people like Schiff who talked about Bach and did masterclasses with people playing Bach.

I consider myself not a good Bach player as well, but as Bach is fundamental training for all classical pianists, we all have to go through a fair bit of Bach training. I find listening to his other works like cantata, St. Mathew's passion etc... gives you a better understanding of the baroque polyphony style. This is why people above recommend you to sing it out, so you can work out the melodic lines and phrase it more naturally while also playing the other.

I also think reading about Bach (for example: http://www.qub.ac.uk/~tomita/WTC2Psalm/index.html or http://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=musicalofferings) gives you a better understanding of the work in relation to their context and background and what people think about the work. You may not always agree with them, but it can offer some additional insights about the work he did.


From what the other comments said, I will definitely read that, so thanks for the link! Also, I had actually learned the Prelude in Bach's English Suite 2 in A Minor at one point, but I haven't played that one in a while. Maybe I'll learn the whole English suite after I get some more inventions and sinfonias down, and then move on to WTC, how does that sound?

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2750229
07/08/18 01:23 PM
07/08/18 01:23 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,497
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 21,497
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by RmntcPianoLvr
[...]Also, I had actually learned the Prelude in Bach's English Suite 2 in A Minor at one point, but I haven't played that one in a while. Maybe I'll learn the whole English suite after I get some more inventions and sinfonias down, and then move on to WTC, how does that sound?


Depending upon both your experience and your comfort level learning and playing Bach, I think that the French Suites might be a better experience than the English Suites. Many of the English Suite movements are longer and certainly more difficult than those in the French Suites.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: pianoloverus] #2750231
07/08/18 01:35 PM
07/08/18 01:35 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,554
SE USA
WhoDwaldi Offline
2000 Post Club Member
WhoDwaldi  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,554
SE USA
Originally Posted by pianoloverus

I once attended a performance of some of the WTC where conservatory students each played just one P&F. Compared to a recital not including works by Bach, they had a lot more memory problems. It's possible that some of the students had a learned a particular P&F specifically for this concert, but it was still shocking to see how much difficulty students at a major conservatory experienced.


I haven't read this whole thread, but (in case not mentioned) there is a "spook" factor to Bach in conservatories. If one person has a memory slip performing early in the school year, everybody else is likely to until somebody breaks the curse. Strange phenomenum! blush


WhoDwaldi
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: BruceD] #2750248
07/08/18 04:07 PM
07/08/18 04:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
R
RmntcPianoLvr Offline OP
Full Member
RmntcPianoLvr  Offline OP
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by RmntcPianoLvr
[...]Also, I had actually learned the Prelude in Bach's English Suite 2 in A Minor at one point, but I haven't played that one in a while. Maybe I'll learn the whole English suite after I get some more inventions and sinfonias down, and then move on to WTC, how does that sound?


Depending upon both your experience and your comfort level learning and playing Bach, I think that the French Suites might be a better experience than the English Suites. Many of the English Suite movements are longer and certainly more difficult than those in the French Suites.

Regards,


Yes I had just noticed that a few hours ago when I decided to go on Henle's site and see what ratings they were, and the English suites seem to be around level 6/7, while the French suites tend to be around 5/6. Which French suite is your personal favorite? I'm not really too familiar with them.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2750311
07/09/18 12:39 AM
07/09/18 12:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 215
A
allegro_concerto Offline
Full Member
allegro_concerto  Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 215
French Suite No. 5 is the most famous one... I have played all of 5 and 6 myself when I was younger, they are quite lovely and charming pieces to play.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2750639
07/10/18 05:42 PM
07/10/18 05:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,913
D
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
dolce sfogato  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,913
As a child, Bach was forced upon me: inventions, Klavierbüchlein, WTC, the works. It made me hate Bach, his portrait on one of my bookcovers didn't help...As an adolescent my father took me for 5 years to the St.Matthew Passion, it grew on me...As a student at conservatory there was no escape, all 48 and most of the partita's were standard litt. Now, as a 'mature' person (this is not serious) I regard Bach as the basis of all music that was written after his days, even before, we all now what Schumann and Chopin, and Beethoven and Mozart, and Mendelssohn and Wagner thought about him...Once I was asked to perform the Goldberg Variations, it was the fee that made me do it, shame on me!, but the homecoming feeling suddenly was there and never left, it is never easy to learn or perform Bach, but in the end nothing beats it, he makes us feel humble and happy (if we succeed).


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2750667
07/10/18 07:43 PM
07/10/18 07:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 662
Union SC
monkeeys Online content
500 Post Club Member
monkeeys  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 662
Union SC
Can I ask how far along should a beginner be before trying any Bach pieces and what are the ones people usually start on?


Alesis Coda Pro
PianoVideoLessons.com Currently Unit 4
Alfred Adult Piano 1-ebook version
Grateful Dead fan since 1987
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750772
07/11/18 12:45 PM
07/11/18 12:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
R
RmntcPianoLvr Offline OP
Full Member
RmntcPianoLvr  Offline OP
Full Member
R
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by allegro_concerto
French Suite No. 5 is the most famous one... I have played all of 5 and 6 myself when I was younger, they are quite lovely and charming pieces to play.


Listened to the whole thing by Andras Shiff, a very light yet touching piece. May consider that one thanks for the recommendation.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: monkeeys] #2750836
07/11/18 05:46 PM
07/11/18 05:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 288
Netherlands
H
hyena Offline
Full Member
hyena  Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 288
Netherlands
Originally Posted by monkeeys
Can I ask how far along should a beginner be before trying any Bach pieces and what are the ones people usually start on?


Look for Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: hyena] #2750867
07/11/18 08:50 PM
07/11/18 08:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 294
Toronto, Canada
T
thepianoplayer416 Online content
Full Member
thepianoplayer416  Online Content
Full Member
T
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 294
Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by hyena
Originally Posted by monkeeys
Can I ask how far along should a beginner be before trying any Bach pieces and what are the ones people usually start on?

Look for Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach


Notebook for Anna M Bach is considered a compilation of other composer's work with only 4 pieces attributable to Bach himself. When Bach presented a notebook to his second wife for learning, a number of pages were blank and pieces were added in later by hand later. Many of the pieces are easy to sight-read including the frequently played Minuet in G & G minor now attributed to Christian Petzhold. The bass part in many of the pieces in the Notebook is simpler than having a second melody (counter-melody) running side-by-side with the main melody. If you can master at least 1 of the 2-part Inventions even at a very slow tempo, you are on your way to more complex pieces like Prelude & Fugue. A set of suites like the 6 French Suites you can find pieces in between with just 1 line on the treble & 1 line on the bass like the Minuet from Suite #2 in C minor. 1 piece I like in particular is the French Suite #3 Minuet & Trio. there are some variations in the piece since Bach submitted it to a publisher at 2 different times. The Minuet has 1 part for the treble & 1 part for the bass. Then comes the trio with 3 parts. Some of the notes in the middle part are played with the L and some are with the R depends on whether the notes are closer to the left or the right hand.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2750912
07/12/18 05:23 AM
07/12/18 05:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 288
Netherlands
H
hyena Offline
Full Member
hyena  Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 288
Netherlands
I'm having to finish 4 of the inventions (almost finished 3), then sinfonias,after that I will probably do some french suites.

Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2751190
07/13/18 09:37 AM
07/13/18 09:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 42
Orange County, CA
B
BeeZee4 Offline
Full Member
BeeZee4  Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 42
Orange County, CA
In the past I've always started my practice session with at least one WTC Prelude and Fugue. Now as I'm immersed in the Goldbergs, I play 5 variations in my session. Sometimes 10. Granted, they're all in the same key, but they are all fairly short. What I'm looking for is independence between the fingers and hands. Plus you get to practice hand crossings. Because they are short I feel that I've accomplished something, rather than long passages of the Toccatas or Partitas or English Suites, or long fugues of WTC 1, which are very challenging on the practice schedule. This warms up the fingers and gets me ready for Mozart or Schumann, who also requires a lot of independence between fingers.


Estonia 190 #6209
Working on:
Bach's Goldbergs
Schumann Fantasy in C
Ravel: Une Barque sur l'Ocean
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: thepianoplayer416] #2751244
07/13/18 03:30 PM
07/13/18 03:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 662
Union SC
monkeeys Online content
500 Post Club Member
monkeeys  Online Content
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 662
Union SC
Originally Posted by hyena
Originally Posted by monkeeys
Can I ask how far along should a beginner be before trying any Bach pieces and what are the ones people usually start on?


Look for Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach

Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Originally Posted by hyena
Originally Posted by monkeeys
Can I ask how far along should a beginner be before trying any Bach pieces and what are the ones people usually start on?

Look for Notebook for Anna Magdalena Bach


Notebook for Anna M Bach is considered a compilation of other composer's work with only 4 pieces attributable to Bach himself. When Bach presented a notebook to his second wife for learning, a number of pages were blank and pieces were added in later by hand later. Many of the pieces are easy to sight-read including the frequently played Minuet in G & G minor now attributed to Christian Petzhold. The bass part in many of the pieces in the Notebook is simpler than having a second melody (counter-melody) running side-by-side with the main melody. If you can master at least 1 of the 2-part Inventions even at a very slow tempo, you are on your way to more complex pieces like Prelude & Fugue. A set of suites like the 6 French Suites you can find pieces in between with just 1 line on the treble & 1 line on the bass like the Minuet from Suite #2 in C minor. 1 piece I like in particular is the French Suite #3 Minuet & Trio. there are some variations in the piece since Bach submitted it to a publisher at 2 different times. The Minuet has 1 part for the treble & 1 part for the bass. Then comes the trio with 3 parts. Some of the notes in the middle part are played with the L and some are with the R depends on whether the notes are closer to the left or the right hand.

Thanks. I’ve got First Lessons by Bach. It’s a Leonard publican that seems pretty good. I may post a separate thread on it. These responses were a great help.


Alesis Coda Pro
PianoVideoLessons.com Currently Unit 4
Alfred Adult Piano 1-ebook version
Grateful Dead fan since 1987
Re: I Suck at Bach [Re: RmntcPianoLvr] #2751251
07/13/18 04:09 PM
07/13/18 04:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 122
Washington, DC
S
StartwithBach Offline
Full Member
StartwithBach  Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 122
Washington, DC
I would just encourage you to keep going and take your practice slowly and methodically. I find learning Bach to be a puzzle compared to anything else on which I work. When the pieces finally start coming together, it is marvelous indeed! Also, I think I read on these pages once (and it makes sense) that the more we become familiar with one composer's work, the more approachable and perhaps intuitive it becomes to us. Even if you were an advanced player with Chopin or Schubert, I could see how jumping right into Bach with no background in his music might be a jolt. Just keep it slow and steady. The music can be quite difficult, but very much worth the work you put into it.


Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

New In Our Store!
New In Our Store!
key racks with hand sanitizer
Attn: Piano Teachers, Music Teachers, Studios!

A rack made from actual piano keys, with individual hand sanitizer for each student!
Tons more music related products in our online store!
(ad)
Jazz Piano Lessons
Jazz Piano Lessons
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Here's the best story I've seen in a while
by Pianolance. 09/18/18 01:02 AM
Kawai CA78: touchscreen and other noises
by oscar9192. 09/17/18 07:58 PM
How do you mark your sheet music?
by schinl. 09/17/18 07:32 PM
Publishers of Alkan
by RmntcPianoLvr. 09/17/18 07:07 PM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics187,365
Posts2,746,420
Members91,024
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1