Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Very quiet bass hammers. Any ideas?

Hi all,

I have a 1927 Winter & Co. Player piano. I have restored it myself, and replaced all felts, cloths, rebuilt the air motor, re-covered the bellows and the tracker etc. I am very satisfied with the final outcome, and it works like a charm. I have kept the hammers and the strings original, as they have been replaced some 40 - 50 years ago; thus, they were in good condition and didn't need replacement. Overall, the player has a lovely tone BUT the bass hammers are way too quiet, and it leaves me clueless of what i can do in order to make the sound more vivid and richer. The treble section is perfectly fine, but the bass hammers have sort of a quiet *thump* noise when they hit the string. It leads me to believe this has something to do with the hammers being very quiet. I've heard other similar player pianos, and their bass section sounds very loud and has a very vivid and rich sound. However, this isn't the case with mine. Being a 54" tall piano, i'd expect it to have a rich sound, but apparently that's not the case. The bass is so soft on this piano, to the point where you can barely even hear it over the treble. I've reshaped the hammers, and it has certainly rejuvenated the sound, but has not made a large difference to the bass hammers. Perhaps voicing the bass hammers would fix this? Or would i need a new set of hammers? I'd like to hear your opinions!

I also currently own a 48" Kawai upright piano. Although the Kawai has significantly shorter bass strings, the sound is much louder and richer than on the player. This leaves me quite baffled, as i'd expect a much taller piano to have a richer and louder sound.

Any ideas of what sort of work i might have to do in order to get the bass back to sounding good? I will appreciate any ideas and opinions.

Thank you.

Stepan.

You might want to post this question to the technicians forum as there is considerable knowledge there about such things.

Bass strings go dead with age.

I don't think that's the case with me. I have a Bechstein Model 8 from 1913, original strings. Sounds marvelous and certainly better than the player, even though the strings on the player are twice younger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfxgqnRFyoY

Here is the comparison video. I am pressing the keys relatively hard on both. Up first is the Bechstein which is obviously much louder and richer, and the second clip is from the player piano.

Neither of them sound that good to me.

I'm no pro like BDB, but have you checked the seating of the bass strings on the bass bridge? Check to make sure the bass strings are seated good on the surface of the bass bridge using a wide-blade screw-driver or brass rod. Tap the bass string lightly just off the surface of the bridge, or just apply downward pressure with the screw-driver or brass rod using your hand.

Lightly tap the bass bridge pins to make sure they are tight and not loose. Check for cracks in the bass bridge. Check to make sure the bass bridge is making good contact with the sound-board and the bridge cantilever is not loose, if it has one.

Reseating the bass strings on the bass bridge may bake a big difference, or at least worth a try. It's worked for me in the past with weak sounding bass strings.

Good luck!

Rick

Your video confirms for us that the Bechstein 8 is the superior instrument...

Regarding your bass sound, yes, it COULD be the strings, really, or, it COULD be the hammers, or...something else.

Perhaps a place to start would be to apply a VERY small amount of hammer hardener at the strike points on two hammers - one midway up the unichords, the second midway up the bi-chords. If there is a positive change, proceed accordingly.

If that does NOT effect a change you like, it really might be time to replace the bass strings. People have their favorites here on PW; mine are from Hellerbass in Germany. They made a very nice difference on my 6'10" "Artist Grand" by Steinert.

Pianotek sells some easy to use hardener. There are various ways to apply it. A hypodermic syring without the needle can be used; I've seen people use a nail polish brush. Just make sure you use JUST A LITTLE for now.

Let us know what you decide to do, and, of course, post a video of before and after.

The Winter was not a high end piano and the strings need replacement. I would not advise spending the money on that because there are many other issues with it that would need to be done as well. Bass strings would eclipse the value.

No argument with S. Phillips on the economics or the worth of a Winter piano. We know she knows what she's talking about.

That said, it seems as if the OP has already put more time, effort & cash into what the piano would fetch in dollars & cents.
But, he LIKES it, and with the exception of the bass strings, the way it sounds.
Ed Foote has provided ways to test the bass strings as well as ways to harden the hammers if the strings are still worthy (enough).

Me, I'd try treating a few hammers and listen after a day or so.
It won't sound like a B8...but may a 1928 Winter, tricked out a bit, will more than suffice.
...but I'm sentimental, and I like strange old pianos.

It strikes me as... odd... that a person would spend considerable time and talent restoring the player system of an old piano when you aren't happy with even the basic sound or tone of the piano.

Nothing ventured nothing gained especially on a 1927 Winter, so mix a 3/1 cocktail thats 3 parts lacquer thinner to 1 part lacquer, so for what you need 3 teaspoons thinner to 1 teaspoon lacquer, mix and transfer to an applicator something like an eye dropper or small plastic dispenser that you can control the flow, initially try hammers 1-8 with 6-8 drops on high shoulders and strike point 'crown' of hammer, leave overnight, and test the following day.....

I would first check the bass strings. Sometimes a twist will bring some life back. Have you taken a close look at the bass bridge?

Dear violarules,

I forgot to mention that the bass was ONCE good. However, i have reshaped the hammers, and i believe that led to the demise of the sound. Besides, i am very happy with the mellow tone of the rest of the piano. The last 3 octaves sound especially pleasing.

Dear seeker,

I am aware that a Winter is certainly not very economical to restore, as it's not a very good piano in the first place. However, i am doing it as per request of my family, as this piano has been a member of our family for as long as anyone can remember. Nevertheless, although not the best investment, the countless hours put into it, and the money invested has certainly been a satisfying process. The piano went from a worthless piece of junk, to a well performing player piano. Regarding the player action, it's performing at 90 - 95%. So now, if i get that bass tone improved, it will be both a very nice player, and a nice piano.

P.S. this is a recording of my Winter. It might be to some people's liking, but the bass is too soft and too mellow in my opinion. However, apart from the bottom 2 octaves of the bass, i quite like the overall tone of the piano.

Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml5pMB6VSjg

Well, you might not be an experienced player piano restorer, per-se, but you are certainly an experienced pianist! Heck, you don't need the player mechanism... just keep playing it yourself!

Why not just give the bass hammers some time blossom and compact again, since you said you reshaped them. If you want immediate results, go with the lacquer recommendation posted here earlier...

Good luck!

Rick

Thanks Rick,

It's certainly nice to hear a nice word or two about my playing

This video was actually made before i rebuilt the air motor, re-tubed the tracker bar, rebuilt the tracker, and cleaned the strings. So the player piano is much more impressive now than it was in the video.

The player mechanism is going to affect the sound somewhat.As I said, neither recording sound that great to me. You really should call in a professional to evaluate the piano in person, and give you options.