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Advices on K545 3rd movement #2750497
07/09/18 11:12 PM
07/09/18 11:12 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Jouishy Offline OP
Full Member
Jouishy  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Hi everyone!

So I'm working on the rondo of K545 sonata. The notes are starting to get placed, but listening back to myself, I feel like I lack some musicality. It is flat, boring. But I don't know what I can do to make it more lively.

Would you have any advices for me?

Thanks in advance.



My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
- Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk
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Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750503
07/10/18 12:44 AM
07/10/18 12:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 566
Union SC
monkeeys Offline
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monkeeys  Offline
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I’m a beginner so of no help but I’m quite impressed with it. I hope I’m playing that well at my 2.5 yr mark. Nice.


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Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750515
07/10/18 03:38 AM
07/10/18 03:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,461
Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
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Qazsedcft  Offline
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I think it's not bad. Once you smooth out the hesitations and add some dynamics it will sound good.

I'm sure you have listened to some interpretations but watch this one:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1vDxlnJVvW8
(the 3rd movement starts at 6:44)

The first section is a typical question-answer between the right and left hands. The answer is like an echo slightly softer and less pronounced. The middle part has to "flow like oil" as Mozart would say, and the final part is loud, I would say forte but I haven't checked the sheet. Barenboim seems to use rubato at the end of some phrases too. I'm not sure if there is a fermata at the end of the middle section but it does sound like it. All of that trailing off adds suspense and then the final section comes in as playful as the opening but louder.


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Bach BWV 1052 mvt. 2
Beethoven op. 2 no. 1 mvt. 1
Chopin Raindrop Prelude
Grieg op. 57 no. 6
Moszkowski op. 91 no. 7
Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750536
07/10/18 07:32 AM
07/10/18 07:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,639
Ireland (ex England)
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zrtf90 Offline
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zrtf90  Offline
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Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,639
Ireland (ex England)
When the first theme returns at 1:44 the problem is highlighted and is easier to spot.

The theme begins on the second, weaker, beat of the bar but the accented note is the C and E not the E and G. The sequence of 16ths that follow might also benefit from better pronunciation on the C, A, D and C, especially on the A and C. Note the last four 16ths at the start of M4 break the legato, they fall dynamically and the return of the main theme in the second half is a weaker beat than the C.

The theme in the left hand begins on the main beat but is accompaniment so should all be quieter. Listen, perhaps by playing the LH alone, how the D in M3 heralds the return to tonic in M4. This leads me to think that the whole phrase is leaning towards the C at M4, beat 1. The remainder of the section leads also to the same RH C in M8 but by a slightly different route. This might give the opening more travel.

What do you think?



Richard
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Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750597
07/10/18 01:10 PM
07/10/18 01:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 317
M
Moo :) Offline
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Moo :)  Offline
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Posts: 317
Try

1) 1st beats louder than off beats.
2) dynamics / phrasing - try to shape to phrases
3) subtle tempo changes (slowing end of phrases)
4) need some push for runs, seems a bit to safe and contained when needs some excitement

Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750636
07/10/18 05:26 PM
07/10/18 05:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 527
Bristol, UK
T
timmyab Offline
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timmyab  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Bristol, UK
Something I would recommend is to hold the third pair of notes of the main theme for their full value rather than playing them stacatto. If anything I would slightly truncate the quaver rest.

Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Moo :)] #2750652
07/10/18 06:58 PM
07/10/18 06:58 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Jouishy Offline OP
Full Member
Jouishy  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Originally Posted by zrtf90
When the first theme returns at 1:44 the problem is highlighted and is easier to spot.

The theme begins on the second, weaker, beat of the bar but the accented note is the C and E not the E and G. The sequence of 16ths that follow might also benefit from better pronunciation on the C, A, D and C, especially on the A and C. Note the last four 16ths at the start of M4 break the legato, they fall dynamically and the return of the main theme in the second half is a weaker beat than the C.

The theme in the left hand begins on the main beat but is accompaniment so should all be quieter. Listen, perhaps by playing the LH alone, how the D in M3 heralds the return to tonic in M4. This leads me to think that the whole phrase is leaning towards the C at M4, beat 1. The remainder of the section leads also to the same RH C in M8 but by a slightly different route. This might give the opening more travel.

What do you think?


Yeah, I've just realised that while watching to a teaching video about that movement : we don't feel that the beginning is on a off-beat and goes to the C-E.

I don't see what is the C,A,D,C part you are talking about.
In my score, all the passage from C bar 2 to G bar 4 is legato, and this part is written as "piano". First theme should be mezzo-forte and the return of the them bar 5 (+anacrouse) should be forte. I'm not quite following those nuances though.

I'll try focus on that "going to the first beat" and LH quieter.


Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
I think it's not bad. Once you smooth out the hesitations and add some dynamics it will sound good.

I'm sure you have listened to some interpretations but watch this one:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1vDxlnJVvW8
(the 3rd movement starts at 6:44)

The first section is a typical question-answer between the right and left hands. The answer is like an echo slightly softer and less pronounced. The middle part has to "flow like oil" as Mozart would say, and the final part is loud, I would say forte but I haven't checked the sheet. Barenboim seems to use rubato at the end of some phrases too. I'm not sure if there is a fermata at the end of the middle section but it does sound like it. All of that trailing off adds suspense and then the final section comes in as playful as the opening but louder.


Yes, Baremboim version is just wonderful, but so fast that it is hard to get anything from a beginner point of view. ^^"

There is a fermata at bar 53, on the silence before replaying the theme for the last time. The last nuance indication is at bar 58 and is "forte", so I suppose "forte" until the end, but I'm sure we can play around mezzo-forte - forte for musicality.
I'm not confortable with rubato for now but I'll keep the idea for later, and see what my teacher thinks about it (I asked for advices in here because I don't think I'll have time to cover that piece with my teacher until the end of next week and wanted to be able to progress until then).

Originally Posted by timmyab
Something I would recommend is to hold the third pair of notes of the main theme for their full value rather than playing them stacatto. If anything I would slightly truncate the quaver rest.



Good idea. Somebody just reminded me that "staccato" in the classical period didn't mean short like today, but more "detached".

Originally Posted by Moo :)
Try

1) 1st beats louder than off beats.
2) dynamics / phrasing - try to shape to phrases
3) subtle tempo changes (slowing end of phrases)
4) need some push for runs, seems a bit to safe and contained when needs some excitement


Thanks. More lively runs. I'll try that.

-

Thanks for your advices.
I need to go back to my piano now!


My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
- Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk
Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750726
07/11/18 06:03 AM
07/11/18 06:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,639
Ireland (ex England)
Z
zrtf90 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
zrtf90  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,639
Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted by Jouishy
I don't see what is the C,A,D,C part you are talking about.
These are the first notes of each group of four 16ths in M2-4 and they take the accents.

Mozart left no dynamic markings in this sonata so any in your score are the work of an editor but before applying any extra dynamics we have four to six dynamic levels in every measure. The movement is in 2/4 time so the first beat in each measure takes a strong accent and the second a weaker accent. The remaining notes in a measure are unaccented. Whether you accent the LH above the unaccented RH notes is a matter of taste but the unaccented D in M3, LH, should at least be softer than the unaccented F in RH above it making at least a fourth dynamic level.

In the urtext the first twelve 16ths, M2-3, are under one slur, the last four in M4 are under another. In the parallel passage, M6 to M8, each group of four has its own slur, three separate groups of four and the final note.

Since Mozart isn't using or expecting pedal in this sonata the first two 8ths, the anacrusis, cannot be legato. Mozart marked these with staccatissimo triangles not staccato dots so they're not so short in duration.

These are the facts, the rest is interpretation.

The staccatissimo suggests to me that the movement is light in character, not needing a sharp staccato. The slower you play this the longer those notes can be whereas staccato notes might keep the same short snap even when slowed down. There doesn't seem to be great drama or excitement in these two phrases. Unlike M8-20.

I believe the first phrase leads from the dynamic climax, M1 beat 1, to the C in M4 beat 1 and the second phrase similarly from M5 beat 1 to M8 beat 1. I think the dynamic range here is quite small. If you exaggerate the accents while you practise, to instil the meaning of each phrase, but drop them when playing at tempo they should still make their presence felt.

The Uchida video is a more measured tempo than Barenboim's.


Richard
Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750782
07/11/18 01:15 PM
07/11/18 01:15 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Jouishy Offline OP
Full Member
Jouishy  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Thanks for those explanations! Great food for thoughts (and practice).

(Still don't see any C A D C group. Measure 2 16th notes group is C D E C and measure 4 is C B A G).


My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
- Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk
Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750786
07/11/18 01:29 PM
07/11/18 01:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,639
Ireland (ex England)
Z
zrtf90 Offline
3000 Post Club Member
zrtf90  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Z
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,639
Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted by Jouishy
Still don't see any C A D C group.
Ah!

M2 beat 2 C and D E C. The first C takes a weak accent, the next three notes are unaccented.
M3 beat 1 A and B C C#. The A takes a strong downbeat accent, the next three notes are unaccented.
M3 beat 2 D and E F D. The D takes a weak accent...
M4 beat 1 C and B A G. The C takes a strong accent.

Only the first note of each group takes an accent.

Is that any clearer?



Richard
Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2750794
07/11/18 02:03 PM
07/11/18 02:03 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Jouishy Offline OP
Full Member
Jouishy  Offline OP
Full Member
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 159
Quebec city, QC
Yes! A lot clearer! I must have missread some part of your message.

Thanks!


My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
- Debussy's Golliwogg's cake walk
Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2751205
07/13/18 11:20 AM
07/13/18 11:20 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 204
Sweden
G
ghosthand Offline
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Sweden
Barneboim is a great pianist and so on, but in this case - I prefer Uchida so very very much. Barenboim demonstrates something I really don't like about Mozart interpretations - this g*****n LIGHTNESS that so many seem to be totally obsessed with. Everything Mozartish should be played like you were dancing on your toes all the time. Although it is nice from time to time, it is so boring in long terms.

OK, so I don't know what Mozart intended. Actually, I don't give a d*mn. He wrote for another time, another taste, another instrument. Or maybe we just deny him his heavy side, because we have this idea that Mozart should be swept into silk and braces and people with white wigs and bows. (Yes, I adore the "Amadeus" movie.) Anyway, in our days we could allow ourselves to interpret Mozart with more dynamics, more rubato, more power if we like. Our pianos allow that. I think what matters is that you have a clear idea on what you want to say with the music. There will always be someone yelling "that was not what Mozart wrote" but hey, the piece is yours. His notations are good ideas, but not the Decalogue. In his days they did not always follow the sheet, by the way. The performer was expected to improvise.

So, that was my opinion. Uchida is in my taste, Barenboim is not. Having said that, I think everyone should have their own opinion. I think you should consider phrase by phrase, sing them in your head with your hands off the keys, or maybe leave the piano totally and take a walk instead. I'm working with this piece myself at the moment, I still fumble to find the right keys so I admire how far you have got. But I hum it to myself quite often and consider different expressions. The version I have in mind is a bit more "untidy" than Uchida's, but I admit hers is lovely to listen at so maybe I should reconsider ... :P

Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Jouishy] #2751230
07/13/18 01:39 PM
07/13/18 01:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,461
Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
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Qazsedcft  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,461
Warsaw, Poland
Everyone is entitled to their own taste and since you mention Uchida I also like her interpretation a lot. In fact, I think she is the best interpreter of Mozart. But Uchida's interpretation is sometimes too "perfect" if you know what I mean. The OP asked for ideas to make her interpretation more interesting and on that account I think Barenboim has some good ideas.


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Bach BWV 1052 mvt. 2
Beethoven op. 2 no. 1 mvt. 1
Chopin Raindrop Prelude
Grieg op. 57 no. 6
Moszkowski op. 91 no. 7
Re: Advices on K545 3rd movement [Re: Qazsedcft] #2751623
07/15/18 06:29 AM
07/15/18 06:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 204
Sweden
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ghosthand Offline
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Sweden
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Everyone is entitled to their own taste and since you mention Uchida I also like her interpretation a lot. In fact, I think she is the best interpreter of Mozart. But Uchida's interpretation is sometimes too "perfect" if you know what I mean. The OP asked for ideas to make her interpretation more interesting and on that account I think Barenboim has some good ideas.



Indeed you are right. Barenboim lacked dynamics, IMO, but otherwise I agree with you fully.


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