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Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials #2750190
07/08/18 08:55 AM
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allegro_concerto Offline OP
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I was looking at videos of various Chopin winners, most notable Stanislav Bunin, and I felt a little sad that he never became a famous pianist like Argerich or Pollini...









Dang Thai Son is also another great pianist with amazing tone colour and it seems unjustified he is relatively unknown...



These two pianists are really quite amazing artists, and I have a lot of admiration for their piano playing.

To me however, the most disappointing winner is probably Yundi Li, who never seem to play a lot of repertoire beyond Chopin and watching his various concerts online, I just don't feel he really matured into a major artist after winning the competition and its been a long time...

Rafal Blechacz also seems to be on the receiving end of various criticisms such as technically brilliant, emotionally lacking or being not too attentive to the acoustics of the music hall. It seems to me however, he plays more repertoire than Yundi, and is more serious about becoming a major artist and is pursuing a PhD. His recent Bach recording is quite nice as well, and shows his versatility to play music from different periods.

Avdeeva and Seong-Jin Cho are recent winners, so I guess we just have to wait and see if they will become a major artist in due course. Personally I don't really like either of them, and cannot see greatness yet... they are all formidable pianists with great techniques, but I don't feel a deep connection with their playing.

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Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750211
07/08/18 11:08 AM
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There is only so much room at the very top. Most/all of the pianists you mentioned have significant careers although not in the stratosphere like Pollini or Argerich. Intangible things like charisma are also involved.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/08/18 11:08 AM.
Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750219
07/08/18 11:44 AM
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I have to disagree with you about Yundi Li. His career has been amazing, and only last year he performed both Chopin Piano Concertos with the Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra as BOTH the soloist and the conductor. He seems to be branching out nicely, imo.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750242
07/08/18 03:24 PM
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Count me in as a big fan of Cho. He is so good!

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Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: NobleHouse] #2750295
07/08/18 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NobleHouse
I have to disagree with you about Yundi Li. His career has been amazing, and only last year he performed both Chopin Piano Concertos with the Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra as BOTH the soloist and the conductor. He seems to be branching out nicely, imo.


To me however, it is more about how well you perform rather than what you do, being able to conduct and play a concerto or two does not really impress me. What is more worthwhile is to achieve the mastery and deep understanding of the work like Zimerman did (who also conducted and played these concerti). The big question is whether he will get there.

Perhaps I am being unjustifiably harsh, but I did have high expectations for this guy when he won because it was at a time when no first prize could be awarded if the jury chose to do so and it came after a 15 year drought since Stanislav Bunin. Now, 18 years have passed, I just wonder whether he will eventually fade into obscurity. If I want to listen to Chopin, I go to Rubinstein, Michelangeli, Lipatti, Bunin etc... or even the young Pogorelich, there is something genuine and deep about their music that makes me want to listen again and again. But not so with Yundi unfortunately.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750299
07/08/18 10:25 PM
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I do not know of Dang Thai Son's motives, but it certainly seemed as though Bunin was not interested in trying to become a super star. He set up a private school in japan (or at least that is what I could find) and keeps to himself, If that is what he wants to do, more power to him, (all though it means no concerts for us).

Is popularity a measure of success? If so then they did not meet their potential, but I think the fact that they won loads of respect and are hopefully doing what they want is plenty of success right there.


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Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750304
07/08/18 11:04 PM
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Most people in my experience don't quite live up to their full potential in a certain area. My theory is that they later on want to choose a more balanced lifestyle.

I'm sure that's the story for most people on here, actually.

I've noticed this with a lot of promising musicians that I knew when I was younger. All trained to be soloists when we were young, many showed the potential. Almost all of them, in fact all of them including a lot of the teachers have either gone in to teaching or freelance session music. None have achieved what we thought they were going to. True, some got one semi-high rank solo gig about 20 years ago, but that was it. A couple of the teachers had short second level solo careers, and won competitions etc. - Respectable if you can get it. A reasonable living doing what you love. But not anywhere the level of the top guys.

Actually tell a lie. Years ago I knew Thomas Ades, well I didn't know him but he was milling around. Pianists at the time if I remember right. He's done pretty well as a composer.

He's the only one that seems to have reached those echelons out of about 50 to 100 people I can think of, many as good as him musically.

Indicating that assuming everyone has the same top rank ability, it's only for the very rare case that the planets align, and I believe it is business sense, timing and luck at this stage.

Yuja Wang is not only a top flight pianist, but she strikes me as a very canny businesswoman. It's things like this that make a difference at this level.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: XenondiFluoride] #2750305
07/08/18 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by XenondiFluoride

Is popularity a measure of success?


In my mind, Bunin's and Dang Thai Son's recordings should be something that is much more well known, and it seems a pity that almost no one know about them except for those who are more deeply involved in classical music. Yundi Li is much more well known than these two in general, but is no where close to their level in my opinion.

In terms of Bunin and Dang Thai Son, I am thinking more about their undervalued status as musicians. With Yundi, I am thinking about him not realising his full potential as an artist. Of course what people decide to do with their career is entirely up to them, and if Bunin decided to be a teacher like his grandfather Heinrich Neuhaus it is also a career choice to be respected. I do feel its a pity that I do not hear more of his music though.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750363
07/09/18 09:09 AM
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The Chopin is a distinctly specialized competition, even if famous, since it is so narrowly focused. But that aspect of it to the side, competitions in general don't tell us much about musicians in the long haul - they are all about highlighting what some people can do in an early stage of a career (and within a ridiculously limited period of time) and that's all.

By the way, I heard a live concert of Yundi (I forget if he's using the "Li" today or not). Musically, it was one of the strangest concerts I've ever heard from a professional. It was as if he had compartmentalized a maybe a half-dozen emotional spaces in an abstract way, and then applied them to the music from the outside, rather than letting the actual music generate its own emotional sense. It was bizarre, to put it mildly.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750496
07/09/18 10:25 PM
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I just discovered Pollini's 1960 recording of piano concerto no. 1 by Chopin, he just won the competition back then. Wow, great recording!!!



I was trying to compare how he fared as winner, and I think he was already miles ahead of these current winners...

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750501
07/10/18 12:22 AM
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Pianists of Pollini's calibre are extremely rare. Much rarer than the every five years of the Chopin Competition. I was at his Carnegie Hall debut. Back then the hall was half empty and you got the best seats in the house for $6. It took several years surprisingly for people to catch on before it would fill up and even move to the stage.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750508
07/10/18 02:22 AM
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A career is rarely made on being a good pianist and deep musician. True, many big names are great pianists and deep musicians (Argerich, Cherkassky, Sokolov, many others). Yet for each of them there are dozens of pianists who are just as great, but virtually unknown the the public. On the other hand, many big names (Who I won't list since out of respect), I feel are simply competent at best.

A career as a concert pianist is about the single most difficult thing I can think of. If you have lots of talent and practice hard for many years, you will eventually get to a point where you'll be able to give powerful, moving performances. But that's not what makes careers. What counts in developing a career is to be be able to give reliable, solid performances under all circumstances - night after night, year after year, decade after decade, on any piano, with a conductor who may intimidate or irritate you, with little practice and little sleep, and of many different programs - not to mention having the social skills to come off well in interviews, make small talk with donors and high-society people, as well as possessing sex-appeal and marketability, and, lastly, the desire to give up any semblance of a normal family life.

Having the stamina, patience, and coolness to be able to sustain those near-impossible demands are not only unrelated to one's innate musicianship, but often can directly contradict the sensitive nature of great artistry.

All that taken into consideration, it is little wonder that some people like Bunin don't rise to international stardom!

Last edited by Opus_Maximus; 07/10/18 02:28 AM.
Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: Opus_Maximus] #2750550
07/10/18 09:05 AM
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I think once you reached the top of your field, it is never easy. A career as professional tennis player, for example, is also very hard, you are playing throughout the year, competitions after competitions. A top chef will be constantly under pressure to produce good food, and has to manage every part of the process from food source to food on table...

However, I think like anything, if you are demand, you can choose the number of concerts you want to perform etc... there is no reason why you have to perform that many concerts. Also a professional pianist should have a reasonably large repertoire that he/she can be ready to play at short notice.

In the case of Bunin, it is almost like he vanished completely off radar with last recording around 1991, just 6 years after he won the competition, and he was playing extremely well. From here it appears he became a piano professor in 1991, so I guess he decided to teach and do something else... and play concerts on an ad hoc basis. He seems to be a very private person as well, there is very little information about him online. I just listened to his 24 Chopin preludes for the first time, and thoroughly enjoyed his playing...

Garrick Ohlsson is also another pianist that is not so well known by the general public, but he still performs regularly etc... I find his tone can be a bit too harsh at times, but he is also a very good pianist worth listening.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2750564
07/10/18 10:03 AM
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Didn't Bunin get a very nice offer/contract from some Japanese company, so essentially he didn't have to work anymore and can just do what he liked to do. This was when the Japanese economy was at its peak.



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Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: newport] #2750910
07/12/18 03:47 AM
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I don't know if Bunin got a very nice offer/contract so he does not need to work any more. If he did, this would have been a tragic loss to the classical music world...

One of my first CDs was actually Bach pieces played by him, and I always thought he was some kind of Bach expert when I was a small kid. It was about the time he dropped off radar, so there was no new CD from him on the market back then. It was not until much later I discovered his Chopin.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2751278
07/13/18 05:38 PM
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The reason why Bunin is not a superstar is because he didn't want to be. He doesn't seem to care about doing anything outside of Germany and Japan.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2751730
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Here is a link to a 2012 NHK behind the scenes documentary with Bunin rehearsing with a girls chorus for a concert in Tohoku after the 3/11 earthquake in Japan:

https://youtu.be/mzFRmZjocok

I read about this documentary a while ago but didn’t see it until yesterday (it was posted a few days ago by a kind soul).


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Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: deerfield] #2751738
07/15/18 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by deerfield
Here is a link to a 2012 NHK behind the scenes documentary with Bunin rehearsing with a girls chorus for a concert in Tohoku after the 3/11 earthquake in Japan:

https://youtu.be/mzFRmZjocok

I read about this documentary a while ago but didn’t see it until yesterday (it was posted a few days ago by a kind soul).


What a wonderful documentary! Bunin has found a life worth living—- who could ask for anything more?

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2751755
07/15/18 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by allegro_concerto
I was looking at videos of various Chopin winners, most notable Stanislav Bunin, and I felt a little sad that he never became a famous pianist like Argerich or Pollini...Dang Thai Son is also another great pianist with amazing tone colour and it seems unjustified he is relatively unknown...

To me however, the most disappointing winner is probably Yundi Li, who never seem to play a lot of repertoire beyond Chopin and watching his various concerts online, I just don't feel he really matured into a major artist after winning the competition and its been a long time...

Rafal Blechacz also seems to be on the receiving end of various criticisms such as technically brilliant, emotionally lacking or being not too attentive to the acoustics of the music hall.
I find most of the above hypercritical.

1. The winners of the Chopin Competition have to already be mature artists to accomplish this victory.
.
2. Yundi has had a big career since winning the Chopin Competition. It's not surprising that someone who won the Chopin would program lots of that composer's music. Yundi has played in the major halls and with major orchestras.

3. Dang Thai Son won the Chopin almost 40 years ago. His modest stage personality might be part of the reason for a relatively modest career.

4. The NY Times review you gave as an example critical of Blechacz was actually 95% a rave review! Are most or a significant percent of his reviews negative? I very much doubt so, but it goes without saying that every pianist has received less than stellar reviews at some time in their career. It almost seems as if you were looking for a negative review for some pianists. Blechacz also one the Gilmore Award, one of the most prestigious in the piano world, after winning the Chopin. I find the idea that his playing is somehow lacking or that he didn't reach his potential rather silly.

5. The Chopin Competition is one of the most important and prestigious in the world, but one cannot expect every winner to have a career or achieve greatness on the order of an Argerich or Zimerman who are often considered among the greatest pianists of the 20th century.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2751777
07/15/18 09:14 PM
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Since on the subject of reviews, many years ago before Pollini was famous as I've mentioned earlier I would sit in the front row keyboard side at Carnegie Hall for $6 and the Hall was half empty. One concert he played all the Chopin op.25 etudes the first half and in the srcond half Beethoven's op. 111. Ironically he made a simple mistake in the first etude clearly one of the easiest but flawless from that point on. The performance of the etudes were I thought technically superb but emotionally 'cold'. The Beethoven however was relevatory to me. I didn't understand the op. 111 until that night. He opened it up to me and his control was extraordinary. To my amazement, when I read the review in the NYT they thought the etudes were performed beautifully but canned the Beethoven.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: pianoloverus] #2751779
07/15/18 09:28 PM
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No, I don't agree Chopin competition winners are mature artists, they should be technically sound and talented, and show promises to become a major artist in the future. As a case in point, Pollini decided to study with Michelangeli and Dan Thai Son went back to conservatory to study after winning the competition.

Any Chopin competition winners or participants with memorable performances will often go on to have career in piano performance at major halls with major orchestras. However, in my mind, a competition winner should be a cut above the rest. In some ways I guess there are so many competitions around the world these days, winning competitions probably lose some of its values compared to the past.

Out of the recent winners, I think Blechacz is probably the most promising to become a major artist, here I am not criticizing his achievements, but I reckon he has the talent to do greater things. His recent Bach CD is quite promising in that regard. As for searching for negative reviews, these are the first two reviews from google in relation to his live performances after the competition.

We are not talking about some random conservatory students who plays piano, but pianists appearing in concert halls, so they will be judged to the highest possible standard unfortunately.

Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: allegro_concerto] #2751782
07/15/18 09:44 PM
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I think some people are judging pianists' careers based on their presence (or otherwise) in the US.

Bear in mind that there are many pianists who have a big presence in Europe but not in USA. And then, there are pianists who used to play frequently in USA but stopped for political reasons (or whatever).

As for Chopin winners, many past winners are frequent and popular visitors to the music festivals in Poland but not elsewhere - like Dang Thai Son. I've heard him perform regularly in Polish radio broadcasts (which the BBC programs in its late-night Radio 3 schedule) from the Chopin Festival and Chopin & His Europe Festival. He's also made recent CD recordings for Polish record labels, including the Chopin and Paderewski concertos.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Chopin Comp. Winners who failed to reach their potentials [Re: deerfield] #2751784
07/15/18 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by deerfield
Here is a link to a 2012 NHK.


Yes he is a kind person, back in 1989 he also did a charity concert for the Armenian earthquake:



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