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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1930780
07/22/12 03:55 PM
07/22/12 03:55 PM
Joined: May 2010
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Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.

as far as I know the "international" conference was organized by Joseph Goebbels and it involved just England and Germany, France was not invited. Its purpose was to get England to adapt the A440 standard that was declared in Germany at that time.

Kees

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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930806
07/22/12 04:34 PM
07/22/12 04:34 PM
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Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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432 Hz is used by many holistic and alternative medicine practitioners for healing these days. They claim it to have benefits in DNA repair and better balanced chakras.
They also claim that 440 produces opposite effects, both damaging DNA and unbalancing the chakras.
Some conspiracy theorists have made claims the Nazi's made the push for this standard fully knowing these effects in order to weaken their future opponents. (For me, this doesn't make sense because they adopted it themselves). Bear in mind most dial tones we hear everyday on the phone are composed of a 440/444 and corresponding C528 tuning.

Last edited by Emmery; 07/22/12 04:36 PM.

Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1930866
07/22/12 06:40 PM
07/22/12 06:40 PM
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London, England
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Phil D Offline
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by DoelKees

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees


One of my colleagues often calls ET the "Nazi" temperament, the "new order" to be imposed on all music with an iron fist and a heavy boot. It reminds me of the phrase from George Orwell's "1984": "You want a vision of the future, Winston? Imagine a boot stepping on a face forever." Funny how the ET only crowd likes to practice the same revisionist history [of tuning] written about in that novel. ET is in tune. ET is now, has always been and will always be the only way to tune a piano.


Hah! Finally, we have Godwin's Law in the ET debate. I wondered how long it would take.

We have to stop the discussion now, you realise? wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930915
07/22/12 08:55 PM
07/22/12 08:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,647
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daniokeeper Offline
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I just remembered an instance of a variable pitch reference used in Western music.

About 25 years ago, I took a course offered at our local community college on how to play the "Fretted Appalachian Mountain Lap Dulcimer." It was quite a long time ago and my memory may be off, but as I recall, we were taught that it was standard practice to tune to a "democratic D." In other words, D was wherever the group decided it was. If we were to use another reference note, it would also be democratic.

Edit: A short vid I found on YouTube re tuning the Fretted Appalachian Mountain Lap Dulcimer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7JPx2Er58k

Last edited by daniokeeper; 07/23/12 12:03 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1931027
07/23/12 01:05 AM
07/23/12 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,423
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Beautiful vid, Joe!

Since Godwin's law has been invoked, and dulcimers cited, let me link to another OT vid, this, a mesmerizing autoharp performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpnFjlTSwU&feature=youtu.be


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Emmery] #1931147
07/23/12 08:11 AM
07/23/12 08:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
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Originally Posted by Emmery
432 Hz is used by many holistic and alternative medicine practitioners for healing these days. They claim it to have benefits in DNA repair and better balanced chakras.
They also claim that 440 produces opposite effects, both damaging DNA and unbalancing the chakras.

Yikes! ' Not gonna' let my wife see this. She'll know immediately whats ailing my chakras (whatever that is) and hound me to seek treatment and stop tuning at A-440.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931527
07/23/12 08:48 PM
07/23/12 08:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline OP
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Here in Finland A=442 is pretty much set in stone, Just as Isaac says, the wind instruments used here are 442 instruments. The link in my OP was sent to me by an englishman who doesn't like our +2 Hz over here where he himself lives nowadays smile He is a wind player, but I think he still uses his 440 instruments.


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
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Musician, arranger, composer

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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Cinnamonbear] #1931534
07/23/12 09:12 PM
07/23/12 09:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Beautiful vid, Joe!

Since Godwin's law has been invoked, and dulcimers cited, let me link to another OT vid, this, a mesmerizing autoharp performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpnFjlTSwU&feature=youtu.be


I found a nice performance of "Greensleeves" on the Mountain Dulcimer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyMZqLjTHcQ&feature=fvwrel


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931555
07/23/12 10:06 PM
07/23/12 10:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,628
PA
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Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted by pppat
Here in Finland A=442 is pretty much set in stone, Just as Isaac says, the wind instruments used here are 442 instruments. The link in my OP was sent to me by an englishman who doesn't like our +2 Hz over here where he himself lives nowadays smile He is a wind player, but I think he still uses his 440 instruments.


Ack. Can't stand sharp! If it were up to me, everything would be pitched at 435 still. Give me mellow.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931576
07/23/12 10:40 PM
07/23/12 10:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,647
PA
daniokeeper Offline
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Andy and Bill,

Absolutely beautiful vids.

I see that the autoharp in the Andy's vid is "a single-key diatonic autoharp." So, apparently it could be tuned out of ET with purer intervals with no "penalty", since transposition and/or modulation to other keys are not possible.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1931726
07/24/12 08:43 AM
07/24/12 08:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,016
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Andy and Bill,

Absolutely beautiful vids.

I see that the autoharp in the Andy's vid is "a single-key diatonic autoharp." So, apparently it could be tuned out of ET with purer intervals with no "penalty", since transposition and/or modulation to other keys are not possible.


I have a Cajun style button accordion for which every interval can be tuned absolutely pure, if desired. The maker had actually discussed tuning with Dr. Al Sanderson. The accordion is diatonic, so it has no equivalent of the "black keys". The Do-Mi-So-Do notes are "push" notes with the bellows and the Re-Fa-Mi-m7 notes are "pull" notes.

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.

This gave the instrument this uncanny "big" sound! All of the professional players loved it when they tried it! Many of them wanted their instruments re-tuned that way. The maker kept my chart and did it upon request but he has since passed away, so no more accordions have been made that way ever since.

The traditional way of tuning these accordions has always been to use a strobe tuner or Korg type device and keep the 4ths & 5ths equally tempered but to flatten the M3's by 15 cents. This gives those instruments a kind of "flat" and slightly "off key" sound which is entirely unnecessary.

No matter how I tried to explain what I had done, the maker could not understand it. He thought of the ET 4ths & 5ths as "pure" when they are not. A 14 cent wide M3 sounds very harsh on those instruments, so the arbitrary choice to narrow them by 15 cents actually makes them 1 cent narrow. Again, no matter how I tried to explain it, he could not understand. He said that the way he normally tuned was a tradition that he did not want to break even though he was quite thoroughly impressed by what I had him do.

I tried to talk to some other makers about what could be done to make the accordion sound better but was rebuffed by all of them. They seemed to be suspicious that some "Yankee" from up North would have any idea of what might make their music sound better. The thing that warmed my accordion make up to me was first of all, that I wanted to buy one of his instruments but that I could also communicate with him in his mother tongue, Cajun French.

When I tried to speak to some of the other makers in Cajun French, I got one of two responses: they either didn't speak that language fluently or replied in heavily accented English, "Whehuh y'all larn dat?" I replied, "By listening" but got no further with them. One of them even shooed me out saying, "W'ain chall git back up whehah ya belong and stop trahin' to change ah culchah! We don' need no cahpet bagguhs 'roun' hyah!"


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931753
07/24/12 09:58 AM
07/24/12 09:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
Many accordions made in Europe now are tuned with the accordion tuning software from Dirk's (Honner being the more reputed) can be used for all reed instruments as harmonicas

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner_22.php



Thats for the experience in developing tuning devices; he begun with those 10 years ago.

I like what propose the piano tuning software, I said it yet.

What is keen in that software is the way the "justness" is find, by iterations and consonance rules.

Last edited by Kamin; 07/24/12 10:12 AM.

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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1931762
07/24/12 10:13 AM
07/24/12 10:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
shirley, MA
jim ialeggio Offline
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jim ialeggio  Offline
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shirley, MA
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I have a Cajun style button accordion...

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.


But there are at least 2 banks of reeds for each individual note, and on most accordions, especially diatonic boxes, the 2 simultaneous sounding reeds are tuned some degree of "wet" meaning non-unison. Its the classic "accordion" out of tune musette sound. I would think the actual tempering is so obscured by the "wet" sound that it would not be particularly clear what one did.

I play a diatonic button accordion, or at least did for a very long time. It is a 3 row custom box, which I have 1 D row, 1 G row and 1C# row. 3 reeds /note when all the stops are on. I had 2 reeds tuned pure, or at least as pure as a reed can be tuned. Kind of irish style, but not quite...too limiting for my chromatic mind. In any case I had it tuned quite "dry", but "dry" is still pretty "wet" relatively speaking.

Jim Ialeggio



Jim Ialeggio
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Chris Leslie] #1931766
07/24/12 10:26 AM
07/24/12 10:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
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Dale Fox Offline
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Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
If everybody plays together at 432 Hz then I fear that the whole Earth will resonate uncontrollably and break apart. Verdi had this concern as well, which is why he insisted on this Requiem to be performed a little bit higher in pitch to be safe.


I thought it was because he hated tenors.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: jim ialeggio] #1931849
07/24/12 02:08 PM
07/24/12 02:08 PM
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Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by jim ialeggio
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I have a Cajun style button accordion...

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.


But there are at least 2 banks of reeds for each individual note, and on most accordions, especially diatonic boxes, the 2 simultaneous sounding reeds are tuned some degree of "wet" meaning non-unison. Its the classic "accordion" out of tune musette sound. I would think the actual tempering is so obscured by the "wet" sound that it would not be particularly clear what one did.

I play a diatonic button accordion, or at least did for a very long time. It is a 3 row custom box, which I have 1 D row, 1 G row and 1C# row. 3 reeds /note when all the stops are on. I had 2 reeds tuned pure, or at least as pure as a reed can be tuned. Kind of irish style, but not quite...too limiting for my chromatic mind. In any case I had it tuned quite "dry", but "dry" is still pretty "wet" relatively speaking.

Jim Ialeggio



Jim,

The Cajuns don't like the "wet" sound so the unison reeds are tuned as purely as possible. The Zydeco musicians from the same region on the other hand, often use full keyboard accordions with the "wet" sound or if they use a diatonic accordion, they also have it tuned "wet". The "wet" sound can also be simulated from a "dry" tuned diatonic accordion by pulling some of the high reed stops half way. I am not sure how that works but I guess it makes them sound a little flat.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1940205
08/10/12 07:54 AM
08/10/12 07:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
USSR,Leningrad.
Alexandr Offline
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On the GOST 24262-89 standard, pianos should be tuned in 440+5 Hz.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1940383
08/10/12 03:11 PM
08/10/12 03:11 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,832
Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Tennessee
>> It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.<<

Hmm, I am looking at a number of forks here, (440's and 523.3's) and several of them are stamped with "official pitch of A.F.of M. (American Federation of Musicians) 1917, Adopted by U.S. Government 1920".
I believe that 440 had been recommended long before 1939.
Regards,

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749536
07/05/18 02:21 PM
07/05/18 02:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 146
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michaelopolis Online content
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Bump.

I've been asked by an Holistic practitioner to tune their old 90 year old piano down to A432.
I feel this is a shame as I've tuned it for a few years now and its fairly stable at A440. The customer is adamant that i tune it down to A432 even after I've advised them against it.

Does anyone have a specific procedure for pitch lowering or is it the same as raising ?



Last edited by michaelopolis; 07/05/18 02:22 PM.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749538
07/05/18 02:51 PM
07/05/18 02:51 PM
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Dublin
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johnstaf Offline
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I was tuning my piano and my door was kicked in by the tuning police, trying to impose 440 on me.

Last edited by johnstaf; 07/05/18 02:55 PM.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749554
07/05/18 03:49 PM
07/05/18 03:49 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,699
Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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Scotland
Quote
an Holistic practitioner


A quack, a charlatan, a mountebank?

In my experience (in the UK), medically qualified General Practitioners practice holistically, and "alternative" or "complementary" practitioners do not.

I would doubt the ability of your 432 Hz person to beneficially alter the disease process of any person with any health condition anywhere at any time.

But I am going off-topic.

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