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Some comments on Mozart and talent #2749229
07/04/18 11:04 AM
07/04/18 11:04 AM
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Posts: 3,542
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phantomFive Offline OP
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I found this article about Mozart, and thought some other people might find it interesting, too.


Poetry is rhythm
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Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749234
07/04/18 11:09 AM
07/04/18 11:09 AM
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Posts: 26,523
Oakland
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Ooh! He refers to piano pieces as "songs"!


Semipro Tech
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: BDB] #2749259
07/04/18 12:23 PM
07/04/18 12:23 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,832
New York City
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Originally Posted by BDB
Ooh! He refers to piano pieces as "songs"!
Great news!

Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: pianoloverus] #2749279
07/04/18 02:16 PM
07/04/18 02:16 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,883
Phoenix, Arizona
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by BDB
Ooh! He refers to piano pieces as "songs"!
Great news!
Makes sense - the author is 27 and (I assume from his resume) a non musician. smile

Last edited by Carey; 07/04/18 02:19 PM.

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Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749322
07/04/18 06:11 PM
07/04/18 06:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 847
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
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Some of his "facts" are not correct. Oh well, what can you expect from a non musician...

Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: NobleHouse] #2749330
07/04/18 06:33 PM
07/04/18 06:33 PM
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Posts: 23,832
New York City
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Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Some of his "facts" are not correct. Oh well, what can you expect from a non musician...
Non-musicians are neither more nor less accurate than musicians.

Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749333
07/04/18 06:39 PM
07/04/18 06:39 PM
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When my first teacher told me the story of Wolfie's childhood - how he was taken all over Europe by his ambitious father, learning from everyone and absorbing the music of many composers, how his early compositions (which were the ones I was learning: K1 etc) were assisted & notated by his father who taught him how to compose as well as play the keyboard and violin - it was as an example of how a genius was made, not born. And that inspired me to practice hard to overcome my manifest lack of any musical aptitude......

In fact, Mozart was much less of a 'natural prodigy' than Mendelssohn, Korngold or even Rossini.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: pianoloverus] #2749349
07/04/18 07:48 PM
07/04/18 07:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 847
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Some of his "facts" are not correct. Oh well, what can you expect from a non musician...
Non-musicians are neither more nor less accurate than musicians.


True! I should have added "non musician historian". Hopefully, a music historian would know the "true" facts. grin

Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749351
07/04/18 07:53 PM
07/04/18 07:53 PM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Hype is always part of fame. It is just a natural product of needing to commercialize a product, or even to gain the requisite amount of attention to bring ones creative skills and works into the general knowledge. You might even say it is "natural".


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749363
07/04/18 09:39 PM
07/04/18 09:39 PM
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Markarian Offline
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The guy who wrote this article looks like a real piece of work. He's tried (who knows how succesfully) to create a career from whole cloth from the morass of marketing buzzwords and venture capital that produces little of lasting value to humanity and stands on slick plug-in web design and keyword-driven social media manipulation that obfuscates a personality and resume as thin as his physique. This dude, right here, is why Boomers have so much contempt for my generation.

Writing an article where he attempts to play armchair musicologist while plugging his new book is the height of conceit. I'm just sorry I gave this smug stiff more analytic impressions by clicking on that link to inflate his already-massive ego.


2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749367
07/04/18 10:12 PM
07/04/18 10:12 PM
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Posts: 201
Dublin
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It always amazes that writers home in on Mozart the prodigy. That is insignificant when compared to his achievements as an adult. Prodigies are not all that unusual.

Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: Markarian] #2749492
07/05/18 11:20 AM
07/05/18 11:20 AM
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Posts: 23,832
New York City
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Originally Posted by Markarian
The guy who wrote this article looks like a real piece of work. He's tried (who knows how succesfully) to create a career from whole cloth from the morass of marketing buzzwords and venture capital that produces little of lasting value to humanity and stands on slick plug-in web design and keyword-driven social media manipulation that obfuscates a personality and resume as thin as his physique. This dude, right here, is why Boomers have so much contempt for my generation.

Writing an article where he attempts to play armchair musicologist while plugging his new book is the height of conceit. I'm just sorry I gave this smug stiff more analytic impressions by clicking on that link to inflate his already-massive ego.
I couldn't disagree more with virtually everything in this post. I find it incredibly mean-spirited and baseless.

Are there specific and major facts in the article you disagree with? If so, please state them. He states that the perception of Mozart writing perfect music without having to do any revisions is based on a false article. Is this true or not? If true, the author has made an important point.

What on earth does his physique have to do with anything? (Not that there is anything wrong with his appearance) Is someone not allowed to promote his own book?(Most authors do this) "Producing little of lasting value to humanity"? (Very few people on the planet rate high in that regard)

The book received extremely positive buyer review on Amazon. The author's list of clients is very impressive.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 07/05/18 11:26 AM.
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: pianoloverus] #2749523
07/05/18 01:35 PM
07/05/18 01:35 PM
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Posts: 1,341
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Markarian Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Markarian
The guy who wrote this article looks like a real piece of work. He's tried (who knows how succesfully) to create a career from whole cloth from the morass of marketing buzzwords and venture capital that produces little of lasting value to humanity and stands on slick plug-in web design and keyword-driven social media manipulation that obfuscates a personality and resume as thin as his physique. This dude, right here, is why Boomers have so much contempt for my generation.

Writing an article where he attempts to play armchair musicologist while plugging his new book is the height of conceit. I'm just sorry I gave this smug stiff more analytic impressions by clicking on that link to inflate his already-massive ego.
I couldn't disagree more with virtually everything in this post. I find it incredibly mean-spirited and baseless.

Are there specific and major facts in the article you disagree with? If so, please state them. He states that the perception of Mozart writing perfect music without having to do any revisions is based on a false article. Is this true or not? If true, the author has made an important point.

What on earth does his physique have to do with anything? (Not that there is anything wrong with his appearance) Is someone not allowed to promote his own book?(Most authors do this) "Producing little of lasting value to humanity"? (Very few people on the planet rate high in that regard)

The book received extremely positive buyer review on Amazon. The author's list of clients is very impressive.


Okay let m try and unpack this because I can definitely see after a day how savage this post looks and everyone here knows I'm generally a pretty nice guy.

First off, I don't actually object to the content of the article. Guy's got some good points about the myths of creativity, genius, etc. My objection is how this article is presented and why he's writing it in the first place. Gannett represents a new class of so-called entrepreneurs who have leveraged the web's second boom to cash in on targeted advertising using analytics. This isn't Madison Street, brand X vs Brand Y,--This is storing files on your computer to find out things about you that can often be deeply personal and highly sensitive. This is using your own CPU cycles to make sure Microsoft or Amtrak knows how long you looked at their page, where your cursor was, etc. This is the type of technology that uses sophisticated algorithms to game Google and rank search results not by their relevance but by their ability to pay for strategic posting. This, in and of itself, gives me a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, but the major issue behind this kind of "disruption" culture is the utter lack of social responsibility and a deep conceit that they are visionaries who have the right to weigh in on culture, science, etc and appeal to authority by flashing their list of clients (which you have previously stated you're impressed with).

These are the types of people who are making our major cities unlivable, our lives less private, and our discourse less humane. I see PW as a space for musicians and music lovers, for artists and artisans and to see a guy like this profiled here just rustled my jimmies, as the kids like to say.

In summary:

- I have some serious, deep-seated moral objections to the type of work his company does
- I think people who DON'T look like him (in several ways) don't have as good a shot at securing that sweet, sweet VC cash
- I think that the article, however well-written, is a disingenuous attempt to create the impression he is similarly creative and pitch his book and is extremely conceited
- My disgust is visceral, emotional, and personal, but I'm hardly the only one who feels this way


So as for Gannett, my instinct was, as one of my friends loves to say, react with "You're not wrong, you're just an ---hole." This was ad hominem through and through and I own that. If you're going to lecture me on Mozart and creativity, why don't you at least create something that makes us feel good? We all come from different backgrounds and have to make a living somehow, but please for the love of G-d, don't drag out Mozart's Ghost to pitch me your book if all you do is make it easier for big corporations sell me their crap.

Marketing analytics and Search Engine Optimization are of no lasting value to humanity. Send tweet.

PS - I'm sorry for being a party pooper. Phantom, please don't take it personally because like I said, the points made in the article aren't bad. Pianoloverus, you had every right to call me out on this and ask me to explain myself. I'm even content to delete the post if it brings too much negativity to the conversation because I really don't want to be "That Guy." I regret if I've lost anyone's respect (if I even had it in the first place).


2012 NY Steinway Model B | Kawai MP11 | Nord Stage 3 Compact | Moog Sub 37 | Behringer DeepMind 12 | Sequential Circuits Prophet 6 | Korg Prologue
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749601
07/05/18 08:48 PM
07/05/18 08:48 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 458
Rural UK
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Fareham Offline
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Rural UK
I just don't see why this article is generating so much heat and so little light.

Just about any famous person will be over-analysed by 'experts' in the years following their deaths, and endless workings and re-workings of stories about them turn them into caricatures of themselves. Mozart is a classic example of this, so I suspect that many of the comments made by Gannett are equally applicable to any of 'the great and the good'. All he's asking is whether the old adage genius is one per cent inspiration, ninety-nine per cent perspiration isn't just as true for Mozart as it was Michelangelo, Newton, IK Brunel etc.

I don't think that denouncing writers with ad hominems is a particularly productive response - surely everyone is entitled to their own view.

My own view on Mozart is coloured by my visceral response to his music - which hopefully is pretty much most people's position to any of the performing arts. Personally, I have fairly strong likes and dislikes about various composers, and I shouldn't shed any tears if I never heard the music of Britten, Mozart, Tchaikovsky and a few others ever again. Whether they were unpleasant people in real life (eq Lully and Wagner), egocentric (Debussy) or just plain lovely (Dvorak) is a pleasing parlour game but no more than that. I remember being harangued by a RAM professor for the best part of an hour during a train journey because I said I very much enjoyed Delius' music. He didn't change my view about Fred Delius - just left me feeling annoyed.


The English may not like music much, but they love the sound it makes ... Beecham
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749607
07/05/18 09:31 PM
07/05/18 09:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,832
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Seattle, WA USA
Well we went down a perilous path some time ago when we made content "free" in return for commercial interests paying to manipulate us and the media. This goes for political actors as well.

I was aware of the ARPANET before it became the internet and we period "visionaries" held great hopes for the breadth of content one would have available at home. We were ignoring how powerful and prevalent emotion and prejudice combined with, (willful in some cases), ignorance of first principles in general, and specifically the first principles of the enlightenment is among our fellow earthlings.

Be woke my friends. Our existence probably depends on it!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749664
07/06/18 05:21 AM
07/06/18 05:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,020
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huaidongxi Offline
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Markarian, and others, thank you for the discussion. it motivated me to read the essay, which struck me as superficial even if it was mostly accurate. marketing is rather central to its author's success, is it not, as it is to the 'venture kapitalist' sector in general. in that respect, because the essay was both fluff and transparently a marketing shill, it serves as a representative artifact of our culture. am a native and resident of alta Calif del norte, the sacred council grounds of the venture kapitalists, and the piece almost seemed to be making a mocking(¿ perhaps earnest ?)comparison between Amadeus and the author.

Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: huaidongxi] #2749681
07/06/18 07:14 AM
07/06/18 07:14 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,832
New York City
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Originally Posted by huaidongxi
Markarian, and others, thank you for the discussion. it motivated me to read the essay, which struck me as superficial even if it was mostly accurate...in that respect, because the essay was both fluff and transparently a marketing shill...
I see nothing superficial or fluffy about the article.

If the part saying that the idea that Mozart wrote down his works in perfect final form without corrections was based on a false article is true, it corrects a major misconception many people have about Mozart. That alone makes the article valuable and important.

I do think the article omits the idea that even if Mozart worked hard and long on his compositional craft, he must have been born with the highest level of talent/genius to reach the heights he achieved.

Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2749703
07/06/18 09:31 AM
07/06/18 09:31 AM
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Dave B Offline
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Fluff denouncing fluff for being fluff. Where have I seen that before?


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: Markarian] #2750657
07/10/18 07:14 PM
07/10/18 07:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,542
California
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phantomFive Offline OP
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California
Originally Posted by Markarian


Okay let m try and unpack this because I can definitely see after a day how savage this post looks and everyone here knows I'm generally a pretty nice guy.

First off, I don't actually object to the content of the article. Guy's got some good points about the myths of creativity, genius, etc. My objection is how this article is presented and why he's writing it in the first place. Gannett represents a new class of so-called entrepreneurs who have leveraged the web's second boom to cash in on targeted advertising using analytics. This isn't Madison Street, brand X vs Brand Y,--This is storing files on your computer to find out things about you that can often be deeply personal and highly sensitive. This is using your own CPU cycles to make sure Microsoft or Amtrak knows how long you looked at their page, where your cursor was, etc. This is the type of technology that uses sophisticated algorithms to game Google and rank search results not by their relevance but by their ability to pay for strategic posting. This, in and of itself, gives me a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, but the major issue behind this kind of "disruption" culture is the utter lack of social responsibility and a deep conceit that they are visionaries who have the right to weigh in on culture, science, etc and appeal to authority by flashing their list of clients (which you have previously stated you're impressed with).

These are the types of people who are making our major cities unlivable, our lives less private, and our discourse less humane. I see PW as a space for musicians and music lovers, for artists and artisans and to see a guy like this profiled here just rustled my jimmies, as the kids like to say.

In summary:

- I have some serious, deep-seated moral objections to the type of work his company does
- I think people who DON'T look like him (in several ways) don't have as good a shot at securing that sweet, sweet VC cash
- I think that the article, however well-written, is a disingenuous attempt to create the impression he is similarly creative and pitch his book and is extremely conceited
- My disgust is visceral, emotional, and personal, but I'm hardly the only one who feels this way


So as for Gannett, my instinct was, as one of my friends loves to say, react with "You're not wrong, you're just an ---hole." This was ad hominem through and through and I own that. If you're going to lecture me on Mozart and creativity, why don't you at least create something that makes us feel good? We all come from different backgrounds and have to make a living somehow, but please for the love of G-d, don't drag out Mozart's Ghost to pitch me your book if all you do is make it easier for big corporations sell me their crap.

Marketing analytics and Search Engine Optimization are of no lasting value to humanity. Send tweet.

PS - I'm sorry for being a party pooper. Phantom, please don't take it personally because like I said, the points made in the article aren't bad. Pianoloverus, you had every right to call me out on this and ask me to explain myself. I'm even content to delete the post if it brings too much negativity to the conversation because I really don't want to be "That Guy." I regret if I've lost anyone's respect (if I even had it in the first place).



At times like this, I like to bring out this graphic:

[Linked Image]

Where is your post on the argument pyramid? I admit I agree with you that advertising is the worst thing that happened to the internet.


Poetry is rhythm
Re: Some comments on Mozart and talent [Re: phantomFive] #2750923
07/12/18 08:21 AM
07/12/18 08:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,370
Vught, The Netherlands
Dave Horne Online content
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Vught, The Netherlands
Tom Lehrer has a quote on almost every topic.

It is a sobering thought that when Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years.


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