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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2747747
06/28/18 07:42 AM
06/28/18 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33

Walls, walls.... the problem of all uprights, no matter acoustic or digital.
From this point, digitals with grand piano cabinets should sound better. Do they?


Should they? Placing a speaker back against a wall means it doesn't have to have as strong a bass response as it would need in free space or, alternatively, a keyboard with the usual pitiful small speakers on board can manage somewhat better. The grand piano cabinet model likely will sound better, but probably because it is more expensive and has a better sound system inside it rather than because it is further away from a wall :-)

Last edited by gwing; 06/28/18 07:43 AM.
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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2747806
06/28/18 11:59 AM
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Yes the proximity to the wall WILL affect the sound from the CA98 Soundboard !!!

However the "boxy sound" you get on this model comes from the 4 small upward-facing paper cone speakers.
These supply the mid-range frequencies and by and large, are mostly unaffected by the proximity of any wall...............

And so it IS NOT a matter of placement affecting the sound 😭

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2747824
06/28/18 12:56 PM
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Yes, boxy is the word I'd use. I haven't tried the CA98. It was not available at the time. I tried the CA97. It was "boxy" sounding. That was a great disappointment.

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2747865
06/28/18 03:29 PM
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In fact, the distance from the wall of a speaker (or a soundborad) will only affect the bass response
If close to a wall, there will be more bass, "virtually" : this will not be good bass because there will be a "boom" in certain frequencies only, not a better amplification on the whole range of bass frequencies.
I think Wall EQ setting on the CA98 is simply a special filter that try to lower certain frequency boom, that's all.

That is very different with the "boxy" sound we are talking about : this boxy effect is a kind of lack of precision, a lack of treeble, as if the speaker was in a paper box, as if our ears were full of cotton.
Definitely not a placement problem in the room.
Sometimes, we can have this effect on medium quality speakers if the volume is too low. with a high volume, the sound gets better.
I think maybe the CA98 sounds better with higher volume

Last edited by olivier du nord; 06/28/18 03:30 PM.

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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: olivier du nord] #2747867
06/28/18 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by olivier du nord
I think maybe the CA98 sounds better with higher volume

That's an interesting point. I always thought that my CA97 sounded much better at "proper" acoustic piano volume. For me that was with volume control at least at 70-75% and Touch "Light".

All in all, I've long since had the impression that the sound of the CA98 (and the CA97 before it) is very much a question of personal taste. There have always been the very happy and satisfied owners of the CA98/CA97 here on the forum, who liked its sound very much (me included), but on the other hand there have also always been the critics who don't like it at all.

I'm personally baffled how one can describe the sound as "coming out of a paper box" or "as if one had cotton in one's ears", as for me it doesn't sound like that at all. But I'm certain that those who say so really feel that way and are equally baffled that I don't hear it.

It just goes to show that anyone who considers this piano (or the CS11 or whatever it's successor will be) should indeed test it himself, to see which side his personal impression falls on.

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2748204
06/30/18 03:22 AM
06/30/18 03:22 AM
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I had a brief play on both CA78 and CA98 and much preferred the 78 whose sound I found much clearer.

That might be self reinforcing prejudice though as to me the idea of using a soundboard as a speaker makes no sense. A piano is a musical instrument and uses a soundboard to amplify sounds so that soundboard is an integral part of the instrument and responsible for some of its colour.

However to reproduce an recorded sound the sound system should be as uncoloured as possible and to do this the most desirable characteristics of a loudspeaker cone are that it should be both rigid and light, entirely the opposite of a thick heavy wooden sound board!

Maybe if the piano samples were recorded in a very sterile manner directly from the strings and somehow didn't include the soundboard resonance from the originating piano we might want to apply some digital processing, or a fake soundboard, to bring back some piano like characteristics to the sound even if they weren't faithful to the originating instrument. Personally I would call such samples bad samples though and the answer not an extra soundboard but better samples :-)

That all said though the final product has to stand on its merit, and it doesn't matter how it is achieved or what technology it uses, the acid test is how well it sounds and plays.

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: gwing] #2748214
06/30/18 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by gwing
That might be self reinforcing prejudice though as to me the idea of using a soundboard as a speaker makes no sense. A piano is a musical instrument and uses a soundboard to amplify sounds so that soundboard is an integral part of the instrument and responsible for some of its colour.

However to reproduce an recorded sound the sound system should be as uncoloured as possible and to do this the most desirable characteristics of a loudspeaker cone are that it should be both rigid and light, entirely the opposite of a thick heavy wooden sound board!

This sounds reasonable at first glance, but then on the other hand, there's the new Kawai Aures line (announced at Musikmesse 2018, to be released later this year) which is essentially an acoustic piano with a silent system that can be played via headphones like a normal silent system, but where the digital sound engine can also be played without headphones, solely through transducers on the acoustic soundboard (no normal speakers at all, if I understood the announcement correctly). So you actually have three modes: Acoustic via soundboard, digital via soundboard (these two can also be mixed!) and digital via headphones.

Now, if a soundboard were so totally unsuitable as a speaker, why would the Kawai engineers and product developers (and their Onkyo colleagues), who I believe are certainly not total noobs in the area of sound engineering and who would certainly also have thought about these issues that you described, develop such a system, if it is indeed as unsuitable as you say?

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: JoBert] #2748216
06/30/18 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Now, if a soundboard were so totally unsuitable as a speaker, why would the Kawai engineers and product developers (and their Onkyo colleagues), who I believe are certainly not total noobs in the area of sound engineering and who would certainly also have thought about these issues that you described, develop such a system, if it is indeed as unsuitable as you say?


Because the soundboard does look unsuitable for the job of turning signals into sound waves, for all the reasons gwing outlines. As a transducer, it must restrict the frequency range because (compared to speaker cones) the board is stiff and unyielding.

The suspicion therefore is that it's a gimmick or (in the case of the silent piano) a cost cutting measure. But as you say, both Kawai and Onkyo are serious and respected companies in their respective areas. It would be very interesting to hear how this Aures piano sounds using only the soundboard as amplification/transducer.


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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: JoBert] #2748218
06/30/18 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
[quote=gwing]on the other hand, there's the new Kawai Aures line (announced at Musikmesse 2018, to be released later this year) which is essentially an acoustic piano with a silent system that can be played via headphones like a normal silent system, but where the digital sound engine can also be played without headphones, solely through transducers on the acoustic soundboard (no normal speakers at all, if I understood the announcement correctly). So you actually have three modes: Acoustic via soundboard, digital via soundboard (these two can also be mixed!) and digital via headphones.



I can see potential in that design. Using the acoustics soundboard instead of speakers removes some components and potentially makes the complete package cheaper to manufacture. If the soundboard adds colouration compared to an ideal speaker material that perhaps isn't an insurmountable problem in a piano that only has to reproduce its internal samples rather than neutrally replaying a wide range of music. In theory the colouration introduced by a soundboard could be compensated for by modifying the samples themselves - actually I'm pretty sure smart manufacturers already do that to compensate for the small and cheap speakers typically fitted to a DP.

It will be interesting to see how it performs at the end of the day. With sufficient engineering and development I'm sure it can be done - I just don't think that using a big heavy lump of wood as a speaker material makes it any easier :-) (and I'd be very surprised if it can manage without at least a couple of small speakers to reproduce the high notes adequately)

Last edited by gwing; 06/30/18 05:15 AM.
Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: gwing] #2748222
06/30/18 05:51 AM
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I think this makes perfect sense.
Originally Posted by gwing
... the idea of using a soundboard as a speaker makes no sense.
... to reproduce an recorded sound the sound system should be as uncoloured as possible and to do this the most desirable characteristics of a loudspeaker cone are that it should be both rigid and light, entirely the opposite of a thick heavy wooden sound board!
To put it more plainly: If the recording takes the sound PRODUCED BY the soundboard of an acoustic piano, but captured IN THE AIR by a microphone, then reproducing it though a soundboard is entirely unnatural. The recording is of air-carried sound waves, and should be played through with a mechanism (a speaker) that reproduces that original sound.

Could the recorded sound be filtered, processed, or otherwise altered to mimic the vibration of strings? And then applied through transducers to 88 distinct points on the CA soundboard? Perhaps that's possible. But surely that's not what's being done in these digital pianos.

Even if this were possible, it seems to me that the original recording would need 88 microphones, one positioned at the bridge termination point of each string. I guess that's what gwing is saying here:
Originally Posted by gwing
Maybe if the piano samples were recorded in a very sterile manner directly from the strings and somehow didn't include the soundboard resonance from the originating piano we might want to apply some digital processing, or a fake soundboard, to bring back some piano like characteristics ...

Here gwing makes another good point:
Originally Posted by gwing
... the final product has to stand on its merit, and it doesn't matter how it is achieved or what technology it uses, the acid test is how well it sounds and plays.

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2748232
06/30/18 06:54 AM
06/30/18 06:54 AM
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Well then, let's hope that Kawai and Onkyo do their next recruiting round here in the forum, as the expertise regarding sound reproduction via transducer and soundboard seems to much higher here than in their engineering teams. wink

Oh, and Yamaha too! They are also on this misguided path with their TransAcoustic systems (and have been for years). And even worse, not only for acoustic pianos, but they even do something similar with acoustic guitars (although only for effects)! What are they thinking!? cool

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: toddy] #2748234
06/30/18 06:58 AM
06/30/18 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by JoBert
Now, if a soundboard were so totally unsuitable as a speaker, why would the Kawai engineers and product developers (and their Onkyo colleagues), who I believe are certainly not total noobs in the area of sound engineering and who would certainly also have thought about these issues that you described, develop such a system, if it is indeed as unsuitable as you say?


Because the soundboard does look unsuitable for the job of turning signals into sound waves, for all the reasons gwing outlines. As a transducer, it must restrict the frequency range because (compared to speaker cones) the board is stiff and unyielding.

The suspicion therefore is that it's a gimmick or (in the case of the silent piano) a cost cutting measure. But as you say, both Kawai and Onkyo are serious and respected companies in their respective areas. It would be very interesting to hear how this Aures piano sounds using only the soundboard as amplification/transducer.


I think the main driving force for a sound board is the surface area, it will project more like an upright would. Perhaps a better system still, that has both the properties of a better speaker diaphragm and a large area, as opposed to a transducer/soundboard combo would be to use the magnepan speaker type designs, very large planars, however costs would go though the roof. Good ones go into the thousands ...
I recall years ago a friend of mine had some, they put out a massive sound stage .. impressive.

I also suspect making the sounboard work as well as possible has a lot to do with the actual transducers output, this is presumably where Onkyo come in optimising that setup. If i recall it was mentioned at a some point that the CA98 soundboard already had an improved flatter frequency response compared to the one in the CA97.

In any case, even if I had some large speaker like those magnepans, I'd never face them backwards to a wall to reflect. I would have them facing toward for better sound projection. Copying the idea of an upright to reflect sound back from a wall makes no sense in a lot of ways, just because an upright does for historical reasons, should we copy the idea ? For me not so much, but to each their own.

Speakers, being what they are, should be setup to work in the best way possible, that is, face toward, not pointing towards the floor downward, just to copy the idea of a grand to argue because the soundboard projects towards the floor , but we find this in many consoles, but it never works that well ... IMO.


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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2748237
06/30/18 07:18 AM
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Few days ago I did some experiment by moving my CA98 from the wall, and I found the sweet spot for my room at 60cm distance from the wall (previously 20-25cm). And I sat at the back of the piano while the piano was playing playback, yeah, I would prefer listening from the back rather than the front lol.
And of course my friends keep asking why did I put the piano far away from the wall. I'll just leave it like that.


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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2748240
06/30/18 07:30 AM
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What do most silent pianos use? Hidden speakers in the cabinet or the soundboard?

I find I'm most easily "fooled" when playing on silents, With the volume set correctly it's often difficult to tell if I'm playing the acoustic or the digital portion, and I've caught myself double checking in occasion. I've always thought this was due to the effect of the real piano cabinet on whatever the sound source is.


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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2748241
06/30/18 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Speakers, being what they are, should be setup to work in the best way possible, that is, face toward, not pointing towards the floor downward, just to copy the idea of a grand to argue because the soundboard projects towards the floor , but we find this in many consoles, but it never works that well ... IMO.

I think you misunderstand how the soundboard in a grand projects. It does not project only towards the floor. It projects both upwards and downwards equally. That's why you can open a grand up, and why in performances it is oriented so that the slanted surface of the opened lid reflects the upwards projected sound to the audience. So the reason for downwards pointing speakers in many DPs are not to mimic the sound projection of a grand. Otherwise, if they wanted to mimic this properly, they would have both downwards and upwards facing speakers (and a lid) - see N3/N3X and similar "grand" DPs.

Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
In any case, even if I had some large speaker like those magnepans, I'd never face them backwards to a wall to reflect. I would have them facing toward for better sound projection. Copying the idea of an upright to reflect sound back from a wall makes no sense in a lot of ways, just because an upright does for historical reasons, should we copy the idea ?

Same misunderstanding here: The upright soundboard projects both forward and backward equally (plus the whole concept of using the whole casing as a resonance box). To reduce this to a simple "it projects backwards and reflects off the wall" is incorrect.
So the question is not "should we use large area speakers to copy the idea of projecting the sound backwards, to reflect off the wall?", but the correct question should be "should we use large area speakers to copy the idea to project the sound forwards and backwards (and use the case as a resonance box)?".
I think that this would be very much worth copying, if it can be done well, seeing that this "idea" has worked well for uprights for a long time and gives this immersive acoustic sound where you do not have to sit in the sweet spot of a pair of speakers to actually utilize those expensive monitors properly.
I don't know if that is possible with the magnepans, or if they are directional in one direction only. It should be possible with a transducer driven soundboard in a properly designed case.

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2748244
06/30/18 07:41 AM
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Nice ideas, JoBert. Now ... what happened to those PW members who are skilled in woodworking construction?
The guys who build a slab digital into the enclosure of an old upright, who build their own mini-grand cabinet?
Or who build custom, exotic speaker systems?

1. Please come back!
2. Show us how it's done.
2a. Realize that I cannot build any such.
3. Please build those for me.

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: Gombessa] #2748245
06/30/18 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
What do most silent pianos use? Hidden speakers in the cabinet or the soundboard?

For many of them, the answer would be neither, as the digital engine can only be heard with headphones. smile

For Kawai Aures (and its ATX predecessor) and Yamaha Transacoustic, it's the soundboard. (Maybe in combo with speakers in some models?)

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: JoBert] #2748246
06/30/18 07:47 AM
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On upright I love to play with the board under the keybed opened, and that makes a difference. I am curious what if we open the front board of this digital piano, will it make difference?
Have anyone opened it?


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Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2748251
06/30/18 08:07 AM
06/30/18 08:07 AM
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Good point. When I had a Kawai upright I'd play with the UPPER board removed. The sound was MUCH better.

Perhaps part of the CA98's problem is that the soundboard has no front exposure?

Re: Kawai & Onkyo - does it really soun better now? [Re: MacMacMac] #2748256
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