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Hi all,

Just wondering if any of you have any wonderful or unexpected suggestions for helping young students who are unfocused day-dreamers to concentrate better in lessons. I’m talking about students who are around the ages of 5-12. My intuition is that sometimes it’s the most creative students who are the most restless and “absent” during parts of their piano lessons. They love music, enjoy playing their pieces, come to lessons happily, make interesting observations about works they are studying (and life in general) - and it interests me to wonder if I was the same way (somewhat restless and unfocused) as a young piano student myself ...

A couple of examples:
+ I have a 7-year-old who is very bright and musical - a talented improviser. But he finds it almost impossible to sit still even for two minutes in our lessons. Sometimes he will finish a piece and I’ll try to tell him a couple of things he’s doing well and then a couple of things he could improve - and frequently he’ll play as I’m talking, or do something else that makes it obvious he’s not absorbing what I’m saying. If I pull him up, he’ll tell me that he is listening, so I ask him to repeat what I just said and he can’t. It’s all an inefficient waste of time and, when I have to repeat things two or three times, it cuts down what we can cover in lessons by about two-thirds.
+ I have another student, about nine, who is also very intelligent. He’s doing theory work way beyond many of my students who are in their teens. But in lessons he finds it difficult to concentrate. Quite frequently, during a discussion of a piece or musical concept - or even while playing a piece - he will suddenly say something completely unrelated (“we’re having a sleep-over tomorrow”; “it’s my friend Jacky’s birthday this weekend”).
+ Another student comes to mind who is a couple of years older, but another talented daydreamer. His eyes will often dart around the room when I explaining something. And I’ll often revise a new concept at the end of the lesson and he has forgotten the very thing I told him ten minutes earlier.

Obviously part of it is just being so young: time - getting a little older and a little more mature - may ultimately be the only solution.

These are some other things I try:
+ Just telling them. “James, focus!” / “Are you listening to me?” / “Please don’t play while I’m talking - it’s rude!”)
+ I try to mix up the lesson for young students so they are not sitting staring at a page of printed music for too many minutes at a time. For example, doing some written work, tapping the rhythms of a piece on bongo drums, aural drills (allowing them to get up off the piano bench), work with flash-cards, little quizzes, improvisation - and occasional moments of humour and off-topic conversation.
+ Carrots/sticks. (“I’ll give you an extra sticker if you can sit nicely from now to the end of the lesson” / “No more stickers today if you play while I’m talking one more time”)

I don’t think the problem is the repertoire; as I said these students are musical, clever and like their pieces. And as a teacher I think I’m very good at expressing concepts in language understandable for student’s age/level/ability - so I don’t think that I’m speaking “above their heads”.

Any suggestions appreciated.
-Paul

Is it possible for you to talk less?

I notice this drifting off is often related to times when the teacher is talking. If you talk past the time you've lost the student's attention, there's no telling what direction their mind goes. This is SO easy to do, because you want to explain your point thoroughly. But often a bright child picks it up faster than you realize, and you keep explaining away while they want to try it out and play.

It does seem that most of your description relates to times when you are talking, rather than times the child is playing.

Have you tried explaining something in a form of a dialogue? For example, 'James, how do you think it's best to play this phrase? Why? And what if I'll play it like that... What will you say?' Ask more questions to draw their attention and to make them analyze what you say.

+1

None of my teachers were much into talking. And they never 'explained' to me what I was doing well. If I played well, they said "Good!" (- no need to tell me which bits were actually 'good') - then immediately got me to play again the section that needed improvement, or needed more work. And so on.

Kids like to be kept physically busy, not listen to monologues.

BTW, the best orchestral conductors are the ones who speak very little, according to my violinist friend who plays in a well-known London orchestra.

Even though the 9 y/o can do the work of an older teen, that doesn't mean he has the maturity of the older teen. He is still a 9 y/o. Even though he can do it, doesn't mean he will understand it at that level. Do less paperwork and more "real stuff". Get him (them) playing. You can label it later.

I let students know that one of the only rules in my studio is that they must not play while I'm speaking. If they start to play while I'm giving an instruction, then I immediately stop talking and remain silent until I have their attention. Some students require more "training" than others, but I have found this pretty effective.


I also like to approach the lesson as more of a dialogue-- guiding the student rather than lecturing. This allows a student to demonstrate their knowledge and keeps them engaged.

Obviously the teacher has to give some instruction/explanation, but I think it's best to keep it short and to the point, especially for younger students.

For kids who know how to read, write brief explanations in their assignment book while they are playing, then have them read the instructions back to you when they're done playing the piece. That keeps them engaged for the whole time--the playing part and the instructional part of each piece.

When you need to offer verbal instructions (for non-readers or in other situations), direct their eyes to where they need to be by saying, for example, "Look at me while I speak," and point to your eyes, or "Look at my hands," and wait for them to look down at your hands, if you're teaching, say, correct hand/finger position.

Geez, by your expectations, ALL of my students will be daydreaming during lessons.

The less mature the student is, the more talkative the teacher needs to be.

There are several possibilities here:

1) The kid is too young to be having lessons! Wait three years and maybe he'll be ready.

2) Are you being too nice? Kids such as this one like to push boundaries. I don't let them get away with anything. Poor behavior choices almost always come from bad parenting, and there's very little you can do about that. So STOMP on it.

3) The kid has ADD or ADHD or some condition.

Now, when you say the kid is a "talented improviser," what do you mean exactly? The kid can improvise stuff that actually sounds good? If he truly enjoys this, maybe you can use it as an incentive. For example, if he behaves well for the entire lesson, you can let him improvise the last 3 minutes of class.

For that age you are probably saying too many things for too long. Here is an exaggerated example of what I got in my teacher training years ago:

Teacher: Pick up your pencils. (looks to see that kids have done so).
Teacher: Open your spelling notebooks to the next new page. (looks to see, etc.)
Teacher: Open your speller to page 9. (holds up her own speller to show what page 9 looks like. Helps Myrtle find page 9).
Teacher: Do questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 - questions 1 to 6. You may start.
(watches to see if anyone is lost).

(As opposed to: "Do questions 1-6 in your spellers, chapter 7. Don't forget to put the date on top, and check your work before handing it in.".)

How many things you can say at the same time increases with the child's age and also experience.

Btw, for piano I'm a mature and motivated adult, but if a music teacher lists several things, I want to write them down. When you're also trying to coordinate physically, work on the music etc., that is a lot to handle at the same time. And I don't think little kids function that way at all.

I suspect we don't disagree much. I would imagine you are probably much more directive with a less mature student, and you might talk many times more. But I also suspect you make your comments much briefer. Once you've made your point, every additional word dilutes it. The younger the student, the less words I put in a row. (I don't teach piano, but have worked with children.)

TIM GOT IT!!!!!!!!!

That's exactly what the problem is.

You can't even get people to listen at a meal out without taking out their phones, because they get bored. Same thing happens to me.

It's 2018. It's now a very fast world. As teachers we have to use this speed as a plus, not a punishment.

TIM GOT IT!!!!!!!!!

That's exactly what the problem is.

You can't even get people to listen at a meal out without taking out their phones, because they get bored. Same thing happens to me.

It's 2018. It's now a very fast world. As teachers we have to use this speed as a plus, not a punishment.

That's it. Learn to express more in less time. Get at the important things. Minimum explanation, maximum action.

Even when I play for young students, and I do this frequently, I keep the passages very short. They are impatient to get back to it.

How many people want to hear their friends talk about what they are doing in computer games while they have to sit at the sidelines and watch?

No, my comments are never brief. Even for the advanced students who work very hard, I could go off on a tangent and unload 50 years of music history on the spot.

Obviously, I have a feel for each individual student and how much they can tolerate my salvo of words. I also use words as a weapon against insouciance. Forceful delivery of the weapon also helps.

Boy am I glad I'm not yr student!!
What you do may make you feel good but goes against the basic rules of teaching anybody anything.
Still,if you're making a living, there you go

And you based your judgment of my teaching skills on....what....exactly?

And, yes, I'm making a living. What point are you making?

A major problem in teacher forums is that what a teacher may say in words about teaching may not at all reflect how they actually teach. So I will respond without going in that direction, and just consider what you wrote.

You said that you "can go off on a tangent etc." I'm sure that you can. Anyone with expertise in some area can say many things about what they know. But the question here is what the student can do. Will the student be able to follow what you are saying and hold on to it? Is this lengthy tangent effective, teaching-wise?

But the issue here is a young student,age 7, and a problem the teacher has. At least three people have all said the same thing: young student cannot handle lots of information and lots of words. This is what you seem to be disputing in your response to Tim. But in your argument, you have told us what you can do. We are talking about what the student can do. Are you disagreeing that less words may be more effective for a small child, than fewer words delivered at one time?

A hardworking advanced student SHOULD be able to take the information and make it useful. I know when to stop.


I think I answered that already. Whether you use 80 words or 8 words, if the student doesn't listen to you, no learning is taking place. You have to get the kid to listen first.

I have no idea if the OP will drone on and on using long sentences to a 7-year-old kid. Who made that assumption?

I think we all agree to getting the child to listen first. However, you seemed to be disagreeing with Tim in his proposal (he was not responding to you at the time) that shorter and less in terms of words is better for a young child for maintaining that assumption.

I am sure that none of us wrote about droning on and on. Nor did we make assumptions. We looked at possibilities. In my post on the 27th, I first quoted the part of the OP's post which gave some possible clues. It's still there on the 1st page to read. I gave the example of how I learned to teach young children, in terms of only saying perhaps two things, as opposed to a list which an older child can absorb.

Yes, you have to get the child to listen first. But then also, make it short enough for the young child to be able to continue to follow. That was our point, and it was also Tim's initial point.

I agree with what has been expressed about too much talking. It is possible that the language you are using is more complex than the kid can easily process. Keep it simple, and use images to support your message. (I'm an adult with a generally competent language system, and my teacher still draws an eye to remind me to look ahead as well as circles and arrows when they might help.)






Everyone has these thoughts. Most adults have learned to filter this stuff before it comes out of our mouths most of the time. Remind the kid of the topic ("Hold that thought for later; we are talking about finger 2 right now.")



For a kid who is "a couple years older" than the nine year old in the previous example, I'd recommend writing notes about each concept you cover. This way you can refer back to it at the end of the lesson and he can refer back to it during the week. I wouldn't worry about his eyes darting around the room.





How are these working out for you? If they are not successful, why do you keep doing them?
If it is not working, stop doing it and try something else.


Why is this a request? This should be a rule. "When we play, we do not talk. When we talk, we do not play."