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Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Gene Nelson] #2750085
07/07/18 05:51 PM
07/07/18 05:51 PM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
Originally Posted by Ed A. Hall
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
Also, are there any other options for hammers, such as lighter ones? Or does my piano really only work well with the one kind?


Before going through all the trouble and expense to install new hammers that are lighter weight, find a piano technician who will take the existing hammers and taper them. Tapering the existing hammers will will decrease hammer weight and touchweight. I've had customers with the exact same scenario as you and tapering the hammers yielded excellent results.


Thanks. That does sound like an easier and less drastic option.

Also, have any of you heard of this?

... there is a rather inexpensive, completely reversible solution; cutting the balance washers in half, which will immediately and consistently drop the DW 3-5 grams or so. This is a technique developed by David Stanwood a quick and painless way to globally change touchweight

Dont cut them quite in half but it does get results, a little better leverage plus there is a little less wear on the balance rail hole in the key. You can purchase them pre cut as well.
One other option are WNG key capstans. A typical brass key capstan can be up to 8 or more grams while the WNG is about 3 if memory serves. Also, the WNG's are annodized aluminum, very smooth - low friction.

And yes, voicing up hammers after they have been voiced down is relatively easy. I use a dilute solution of plastic key top dissolved in acetone.
Just a drop on the strike point in the string groove can make a big difference.

One other thing I would consider is that 37+ gram upweight you say you have. If you take mass off of the hammer you will get more harmonics tone wise but you will loose that high upweight that really gives a feeling of control and adds to repetition.


Good to know, thanks! Now I guess I just wait until I can get the tech to come out. We'll see how it goes.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
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Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2750202
07/08/18 08:59 AM
07/08/18 08:59 AM
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I have a few questions/remarks concerning these points.

Originally Posted by PWG
Pianos are in a constant cycle of degrading. It goes with the territory. If the response has degadef (gradually) 20% from when you bought, that means you are probably working 20% harder to get what you want. If it was heavy then, it would be "heavier" now because of your increased exertion.


I agree that pianos are in a constant cycle of change. Sometimes they are improving, as in "playing in" a new set of hammers, a brand new keyboard. Sometimes they are degrading, as in hammers hardening to the point of unpleasantness after lots of playing.

Thinking about this post I couldn't, at first understand, whey the piano had grown harder to play to the OP's perception. If hammers harden over repeated use, the effort to get louder sounds is reduced. As the keys are played, the bushings wear and there should be less friction (or so I believe) going up and down the pins in the action frame. Kawai actions are not know for getting verdigris. Wouldn't the action be EASIER to play assuming there was still adequate after-touch?

Originally Posted by OP
OP I played a C3 which was nice, light and responsive, and then I switched to an RX2, and it was definitely heavier and slower. Probably a bit of an exaggeration, but it almost felt like someone poured syrup into the RX2....just had a sluggish and heavy feel.
This could be a big part of it. One dealer I spoke with today said he's observed that Kawai actions get heavier over time. Also, it had fairly significant voicing done in the first couple years I had it, so that could be another culprit.


Regarding the C3 vs the RX2, I wonder if it is not weight and friction that are at issue, but the difference in the way that Yamahas "speak" vs Kawai. I've played my share of wonderful pianos by both makers, and they are very different. The Yamaha action feels a bit firmer to me, not in the weight required to make a key go down, but how it feels when the key hits the bottom. Kawai feels more "velvety" to me, as if the bushings fit the pins somewhat more tightly.

"...it had fairly significant voicing done in the first couple years..." could explain why the piano STILL feels harder to play. While the hammers would ordinarily brighten up a lot with playing (with the action feeling easier to play as a consequence), voicing them DOWN, which I assume is what happened, would make the piano feel heavier unless a lot of felt was removed in the voicing process.

All this, dear friends, is why finding a good piano technician, someone who really understands the interplay of so many variables, is so important.

It will be interesting to read what the OP's tech recommends upon inspection.

Good day to all.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Seeker] #2750226
07/08/18 11:50 AM
07/08/18 11:50 AM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Thanks, Andrew. I am definitely going to ask about the voicing when the tech comes. On my piano, it seems difficult to get brightness when I want it. For example, I can play notes harder and harder, and they get louder, but not much brighter. I feel like I practically have to pound the keyboard to get that brightness out of notes.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2750230
07/08/18 12:27 PM
07/08/18 12:27 PM
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Georgia, USA
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In my view, hammer voicing is a specialty skill that many good piano tuners/technicians might not have. You asked earlier if a mellow voicing can be reversed and made brighter. It can to an extent. It is typically easier and more common to voice a harsh, bright tone down to be more mellow using voicing needles or even liquid/chemical solutions. A hammer most certainly can be over-voiced and more or less killed/ruined. Hence, this is why you need someone highly experienced in the area of hammer voicing.

A mellow sounding tone can be made brighter by someone who knows how...

Reading through your thread, the voicing issue might have some psychological correlation to your sense of the action being too heavy. But I'm just speculating.

Good luck.

Rick


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Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2750266
07/08/18 04:53 PM
07/08/18 04:53 PM
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If the hammers still produce some "Bite" when played hard, shaping the hammers to reduce weight and make them more pointed in shape is the most likely route to improve brightness and reduce playing effort. The inertia of the hammer has a dramatic effect on tone and touch response. Lighter hammers rebound from the string quicker and this reduces the hammer/string contact time which means less damping. Lighter hammers also complete escapement quicker and this improves control and response.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
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Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2750269
07/08/18 05:05 PM
07/08/18 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
Thanks, Andrew. I am definitely going to ask about the voicing when the tech comes. On my piano, it seems difficult to get brightness when I want it. For example, I can play notes harder and harder, and they get louder, but not much brighter. I feel like I practically have to pound the keyboard to get that brightness out of notes.



Stuff has been done to this piano early in its life we don't know about.

Also, there is nothing in a piano that "gets better" with age and wear. It's downhill all the way, requiring consistent "chair lifts" to keep things in top shape. Same with your car. Anything in your car that gets "better" with time and wear? Not mine.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 07/08/18 05:05 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Rickster] #2750291
07/08/18 08:09 PM
07/08/18 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Rickster
In my view, hammer voicing is a specialty skill that many good piano tuners/technicians might not have. You asked earlier if a mellow voicing can be reversed and made brighter. It can to an extent. It is typically easier and more common to voice a harsh, bright tone down to be more mellow using voicing needles or even liquid/chemical solutions. A hammer most certainly can be over-voiced and more or less killed/ruined. Hence, this is why you need someone highly experienced in the area of hammer voicing.

A mellow sounding tone can be made brighter by someone who knows how...

Reading through your thread, the voicing issue might have some psychological correlation to your sense of the action being too heavy. But I'm just speculating.

Good luck.

Rick


Yeah, I do think the mellowness may be one factor that makes it "feel" heavier than it really is.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2750296
07/08/18 09:01 PM
07/08/18 09:01 PM
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Then again, I do like the tone now. I just played for a while and the sound is mostly great, but it just feels like a workout.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2750367
07/09/18 08:20 AM
07/09/18 08:20 AM
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It seems to me that the ‘feel’ of the action of one piano relative to another could be tested somewhat objectively, at least for the interested individual, by practicing each piano for an hour or so while wearing hearing protection that reduces the sound by at least 30db in the 100Hz to 4kHz range. Downweight, dynamic inertial effects, key repetition rates all become obvious.

I practice using four different sound levels on my M&H BB, depending on the work required - ear protection, lid fully down, lid on half stick, and lid fully up. Each setup obviously changes the amount of effort required to produce the same sound in my ears. I do not change my technique or effort as I do not expect or want to achieve the same sound levels.

I go to my tech’s shop regularly and play many different grands (most recently M&H A, Ibach with double-overstrung bass, C2, Kawai KG2, S&S A2 all on the same day) when they are completely rebuilt and I find that, while each piano has a very unique sound (btw, he uses Ronsen, Abel and NY S&S hammers) he adjusts the geometry and regulates the action so that they all ‘feel’ very similar and are easy to play and control.

Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: P W Grey] #2750456
07/09/18 02:50 PM
07/09/18 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave
Thanks, Andrew. I am definitely going to ask about the voicing when the tech comes. On my piano, it seems difficult to get brightness when I want it. For example, I can play notes harder and harder, and they get louder, but not much brighter. I feel like I practically have to pound the keyboard to get that brightness out of notes.



Stuff has been done to this piano early in its life we don't know about.

Also, there is nothing in a piano that "gets better" with age and wear. It's downhill all the way, requiring consistent "chair lifts" to keep things in top shape. Same with your car. Anything in your car that gets "better" with time and wear? Not mine.

Pwg

Respectfully disagree though I take your point. If a piano has been prepped to the point where everything is optimal, indeed, it's all downhill from there. So... no argument from me.

But, I can relate numerous occasions on which a tech has told me that "the hammers need to be played in for a while. If I voice them up now, it'll be too bright later". I've played pianos at major venues where I was told that a piano was "...relatively new, and they were still working to get the tone just right...". There are also the times when I've been told, "you need to play the action in for a month or so, THEN we'll re-regulate it".

Isn't this congruent with what Shigeru-Kawai does? They sell a piano that is "store ready"; they send a tech out some time later to make adjustments. Most things will have degraded - to your point - regulation adjustments, tuning, and voicing. But I bet that not every voicing is DOWN for every client. Some may want things adjusted UP.

Beyond that, as usual, I am d'accord with your points.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2750468
07/09/18 05:18 PM
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Pwg


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Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2756167
08/05/18 06:59 PM
08/05/18 06:59 PM
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David Boyce Online content
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Any resolution to this?

Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: David Boyce] #2756426
08/07/18 08:57 AM
08/07/18 08:57 AM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Any resolution to this?


I think so. I got many opinions online, spoke to a few dealers and also had a couple of techs come out in person. The general advice from most people was to check for regulation issues and excessive friction. One tech came out and regulated/lubed a single key to see how much difference it'd make. I compared to the key next to it, and it really didn't seem much better. There was maybe a very subtle change, but hard to say for sure. The downweight was still the same on the tweaked key.

Another suggestion was to re-weight the keyboard, but most people said this was a bad idea because it'd just add inertia. The second tech who came out looked at the weighting, and thought that the current amount of lead in the keys was not excessive. He thought that whoever weighed it off at the factory kind of left the touch on the heavy side. He thought we could actually get away with adding a bit more lead to the keys without running into inertial problems. However, this is a bigger job and not easily reversible. The tech also measured the action ratio (which was within normal range), and thought there wasn't excessive friction in the action.

Finally, the Stanwood "trick" was suggested, which is where the balance rail punchings are cut in half. If I'm understanding it correctly, the gist of it is, it moves the pivot point slightly rearward, thereby giving more leverage to the player. In effect, the downweight is reduced. Since this is a fairly quick and easy thing to try, we went ahead and did it. Middle C was measuring around 57 grams downweight before, and afterwards, I believe it went to around 52-53 g.

So, the touchweight is lighter for sure, and it almost feels like a different piano. It also feels a little strange, and I'm still not 100% sure I like it, but I think I need to give it some time to adjust. One big advantage of this trick is, it's totally reversible. Not sure if there are any downsides to it. I'm assuming the piano was designed with this in mind, so hopefully I don't run into any issues. Guess I will play it for a bit and see how it goes =)

Last edited by Radio.Octave; 08/07/18 09:00 AM.

Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2756464
08/07/18 10:17 AM
08/07/18 10:17 AM
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Thanks for the update, Radio.Octave. The balance rail punchings method is very interesting, and as you say, involves no drastic change to the piano.

Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2757096
08/09/18 11:16 AM
08/09/18 11:16 AM
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Rockville, MD
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We had similar results to yours on my 1929 Steinert Artist Grand. As I understand it, the half punching solution emulates Steinway's acclerated action.

Here's a picture from a piece by Steinert in Boston of the Steinway acclerated action. The red circle shows the Steinway accelerator.

[Linked Image]

...and the text:
"Steinway’s Accelerated Action is largely reliant upon two design elements: a half-round balance rail bearing, and a special method of weighting the keys.

Accelerating the Action

The rounded pivot piece allows the key to move freely

The balance rail bearing in a Steinway is a rounded, felt-covered piece of maple. It acts as the fulcrum on which the key pivots. Though this might seem like a trivial aspect of the piano, it is in fact one of the most important. No other piano uses a rounded surface; all others are flat.

The Seesaw Effect

The significance of this becomes apparent when you think of it like this: Imagine a seesaw with a lightweight person on one end, and a heavyweight person on the other. The heavyweight person represents your fingers, and the lightweight person the hammer mechanism. If the seesaw were pivoting on a flat surface, there would be no way for the mechanism to easily tip from one point to the other. Yet seesaws pivot on a rounded surface, allowing for the mechanism to tip freely from one end to the other.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Seeker] #2757166
08/09/18 02:51 PM
08/09/18 02:51 PM
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Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Seeker
We had similar results to yours on my 1929 Steinert Artist Grand. As I understand it, the half punching solution emulates Steinway's acclerated action.

Here's a picture from a piece by Steinert in Boston of the Steinway acclerated action. The red circle shows the Steinway accelerator.

[Linked Image]

...and the text:
"Steinway’s Accelerated Action is largely reliant upon two design elements: a half-round balance rail bearing, and a special method of weighting the keys.

Accelerating the Action

The rounded pivot piece allows the key to move freely

The balance rail bearing in a Steinway is a rounded, felt-covered piece of maple. It acts as the fulcrum on which the key pivots. Though this might seem like a trivial aspect of the piano, it is in fact one of the most important. No other piano uses a rounded surface; all others are flat.

The Seesaw Effect

The significance of this becomes apparent when you think of it like this: Imagine a seesaw with a lightweight person on one end, and a heavyweight person on the other. The heavyweight person represents your fingers, and the lightweight person the hammer mechanism. If the seesaw were pivoting on a flat surface, there would be no way for the mechanism to easily tip from one point to the other. Yet seesaws pivot on a rounded surface, allowing for the mechanism to tip freely from one end to the other.


Hi Seeker,

Yep, I think this is sort of a "poor-man's" way to emulate that aspect of the Steinway action, although probably only roughly. In my case, the punching is still a flat edge (rather than rounded like Steinway), so I'm not sure there's any acceleration enhancement. If we consider the key to be a simple lever resting on a fulcrum (the punching), by slicing it in half, we're essentially moving the fulcrum rearward (away from the player) slightly.

[Linked Image]

We increase Le, and thereby increase the mechanical advantage. The result is a reduced downweight. It's actually a pretty elegant solution to what could be an expensive and complicated piano problem. It's made a very noticeable difference to my piano, but so far, it still feels a little weird. That's the only way I can think of to describe it. I hope this is just because I've gotten use to playing it over 6 years, and now it's suddenly different, so I need to readjust.

Also, there supposedly aren't any downsides to doing this, but I think the key dip should change, correct? Going back to the lever example, by moving the fulcrum rearward, we increased the length of the work arm, and increased the mechanical advantage. I need less force to press down the key, but the key also has to move a slightly larger distance. That's the tradeoff. So in theory, the keydip should have increased a little, right?


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Mechanics/lever.html
From this perspective it becomes evident that a simple machine may multiply force. That is, a small input force can accomplish a task requiring a large output force. But the constraint is that the small input force must be exerted through a larger distance so that the work input is equal to the work output. You are trading a small force acting through a large distance for a large force acting through a small distance. This is the nature of all the simple machines above as they are shown.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2757196
08/09/18 05:18 PM
08/09/18 05:18 PM
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Yes, installing half cut balance rail punchings would increase key dip (assuming all other things are
kept the same). Perhaps the weird feeling is due to the deeper key dip. You might try measuring the key dip and seeing how it differs from ideal 9.5mm-10mm key dip.

Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2757200
08/09/18 05:35 PM
08/09/18 05:35 PM
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Rockville, MD
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We're in agreement.

The "fix" is more of a "poor man's rig", but... in my own experience, it DID have a positive effect.

Modeling **all** the intricacies of what happens in a piano action under play is beyond my mathematical abilities.

One other thing I CAN point out. Look at the bottom of the Steinway whippen. It, too, is rounded in a way that this "Renner style" whippen is not.
[Linked Image]

My guess is they rounded the whippen as part of the whole accelerated action thing.

So, yeah, you won't have an accelerated action like Steinways.

As to finally getting used to playing your instrument after years, I seem to recall that your instrument became harder to play over time, and you were no longer happy with it.

I, for one, wish you every happiness with your tweaked action. Play it for a while, maybe a month, and then you'll know, if your experience is anything like mine. You can always have dip and key height adjusted...


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Ed A. Hall] #2757339
08/10/18 09:01 AM
08/10/18 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed A. Hall
Yes, installing half cut balance rail punchings would increase key dip (assuming all other things are
kept the same). Perhaps the weird feeling is due to the deeper key dip. You might try measuring the key dip and seeing how it differs from ideal 9.5mm-10mm key dip.


Thanks. Measuring the best I can with a ruler, key dip looks to be about 10mm (maybe slightly less). Not sure how much pressure I should put on the key when measuring? I think I'm in the ballpark, though.


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Seeker] #2757345
08/10/18 09:20 AM
08/10/18 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Seeker
We're in agreement.

The "fix" is more of a "poor man's rig", but... in my own experience, it DID have a positive effect.

Modeling **all** the intricacies of what happens in a piano action under play is beyond my mathematical abilities.

One other thing I CAN point out. Look at the bottom of the Steinway whippen. It, too, is rounded in a way that this "Renner style" whippen is not.


My guess is they rounded the whippen as part of the whole accelerated action thing.

So, yeah, you won't have an accelerated action like Steinways.

As to finally getting used to playing your instrument after years, I seem to recall that your instrument became harder to play over time, and you were no longer happy with it.

I, for one, wish you every happiness with your tweaked action. Play it for a while, maybe a month, and then you'll know, if your experience is anything like mine. You can always have dip and key height adjusted...



Thanks again. It seems to be sounding pretty good at the moment, and it's easier to play for sure. I feel like my fingers can fly over the keys compared to before. The difference in downweight is probably only around 4 grams, which doesn't sound like much, but it's very noticeable.

I also think I may have had a little too much voicing down done in the past, which lead to me working harder to get the sound out of the piano that I wanted. That, combined with the heavy action, made things difficult.

I think I'm liking it now that it's lighter, but I will give it some time. The feeling of "weirdness" will probably go away once I adjust to the new touch. It really does feel like a different piano!


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2757838
08/12/18 09:17 AM
08/12/18 09:17 AM
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Posts: 1,616
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
It actually IS a different piano now. The geometry has changed.

One little warning though about this is that you have made ONE change in 6 years that compensates for the slow degrading of about a dozen other points of reference in the action. These other areas also contribute to what you are now feeling. Ideally, this alteration SHOULD be combined with a complete action reconditioning/regulation. The risk is that you will get used to this change and continue to postpone the other work (which will wear at an accelerating rate).

A good regulation may very well take away that "weird" feel you are talking about.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: P W Grey] #2760201
08/21/18 10:41 PM
08/21/18 10:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 624
Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
It actually IS a different piano now. The geometry has changed.

One little warning though about this is that you have made ONE change in 6 years that compensates for the slow degrading of about a dozen other points of reference in the action. These other areas also contribute to what you are now feeling. Ideally, this alteration SHOULD be combined with a complete action reconditioning/regulation. The risk is that you will get used to this change and continue to postpone the other work (which will wear at an accelerating rate).

A good regulation may very well take away that "weird" feel you are talking about.

Pwg


The tech said the regulation looked pretty good as is, but I'm guessing it still could use some tweaking. I'm getting more used to the feel, and I think it's pretty good, but I did notice something else. Some of the action noise is very loud, especially on certain notes. Here's a quick video I made to show it. Can you guys hear the clicking and clunking? I know for sure it was a bit noisy before, but I don't remember it being this bad. I'm going to run this by the tech to see what he thinks. Some notes are worse than others, but the noise is pretty objectionable, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEoH08i0wuQ&feature=youtu.be


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2760251
08/22/18 05:47 AM
08/22/18 05:47 AM
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P W Grey Offline
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Sounds to me like the combination of hardened/compressed knuckles, hardened/compressed whippen/capstan cloth, etc. Upon release of the key they slap together making noise.

Once again, this is a consequence of playing/wear. Like a car, the more miles you put on it results in gradual change due to wear. YMMV.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2760262
08/22/18 08:26 AM
08/22/18 08:26 AM
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Posts: 1,810
Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Originally Posted by Radio.Octave

Some of the action noise is very loud, especially on certain notes.


Greetings,
I would suggest you take a close look at your repetition/knuckle regulation. If an action is allowed to go out of regulation, and played, the lost motion that forms between jack and knuckle allows the jack to "hammer" the knuckle instead of pushing it. This loss of contact will cause a faster compaction of the leather, and upon release from check, the jack, unimpeded by contact with the knuckle, will hit its stop button at full speed. If set so that the jack can be felt to touch the knuckle as it is released, it will often quietened an action, (which call for springs to be set first). If the pinning is loose, everything will be noisier.

And additional point about the "Accelerated" action. The original half-rounds had the holes offset, and were to be installed specifically so that the long side was proximal. This increased the geometry through the key-stroke so that the hammer was accelerated in its approach to the string. These pianos do NOT repeat faster than the non-accelerated ones. The later sets of half-rounds I have received have the holes in the middle, and I can't see a difference in play when they are turned either way.
Regards,

Last edited by Ed Foote; 08/22/18 08:27 AM. Reason: omission
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Ed Foote] #2760309
08/22/18 12:41 PM
08/22/18 12:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 624
Radio.Octave Offline OP
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Radio.Octave  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 624
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Sounds to me like the combination of hardened/compressed knuckles, hardened/compressed whippen/capstan cloth, etc. Upon release of the key they slap together making noise.

Once again, this is a consequence of playing/wear. Like a car, the more miles you put on it results in gradual change due to wear. YMMV.

Pwg


Originally Posted by Ed Foote
Originally Posted by Radio.Octave

Some of the action noise is very loud, especially on certain notes.


Greetings,
I would suggest you take a close look at your repetition/knuckle regulation. If an action is allowed to go out of regulation, and played, the lost motion that forms between jack and knuckle allows the jack to "hammer" the knuckle instead of pushing it. This loss of contact will cause a faster compaction of the leather, and upon release from check, the jack, unimpeded by contact with the knuckle, will hit its stop button at full speed. If set so that the jack can be felt to touch the knuckle as it is released, it will often quietened an action, (which call for springs to be set first). If the pinning is loose, everything will be noisier.

And additional point about the "Accelerated" action. The original half-rounds had the holes offset, and were to be installed specifically so that the long side was proximal. This increased the geometry through the key-stroke so that the hammer was accelerated in its approach to the string. These pianos do NOT repeat faster than the non-accelerated ones. The later sets of half-rounds I have received have the holes in the middle, and I can't see a difference in play when they are turned either way.
Regards,


Thanks, guys. So it sounds like this is just normal wear and tear, and not due to the punching mod. The tech sent me a similar video from his own piano, and it makes a similar sound. The action was always a little noisy like this, but I didn't notice it being as loud. Can't say for sure, since I can't do an A/B comparison.

Is there really a fix for this then? Regulation, or more like replacing parts?


Kawai RX-6 BLAK
Re: Kawai RX6 heavy action [Re: Radio.Octave] #2760350
08/22/18 04:45 PM
08/22/18 04:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,616
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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P W Grey  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
I cannot precisely account for why it would be louder now than before. Though I always maintain that "there is ALWAYS a reason", I can't come up with anything logical (other than the possibility that now that there is less cushion physically under the key, that the noise is "better" telegraphing through the key to to the keyframe, to the keybed and now more amplified).

If it were my piano though I would:

1) Bolster the whippen cushion (if possible) with bushing cloth, or replace it

2) Bolster the knuckles (if showing signs of indentation from jacks and lever), or replace them

3) Needle the knuckles to soften a little

4) Adjust the fore/aft position of the jack (particularly to get a softer spot of the regulating button contacting the "spoon".

5) Shape the hammers to a nice egg shape...really nice and carefully

6) Remove material from the hammer moulding and tails
a) Personally I would also perform a strike weight analysis and even out the strike weight (tapered of course) from 1 to 88

7) Otherwise proceed through a complete action regulation.

But since it ain't my piano...

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
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