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Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X #2746066
06/21/18 10:19 AM
06/21/18 10:19 AM
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xand Offline OP
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I'm buying a piano for a child (and a little bit for me).

Due to space constraints (apartment), I basically would very much prefer a digital.

I've tried the Roland LX17, Kawai CA98, Casio GP500, and Yamaha NU1X. Unfortunately the NV10 won't be available locally for at least awhile, and the N1/N2 are no longer on sale. I actually also tried the Yamaha DGX-660 but couldn't bring myself to like it (at all).

I tried the Roland LX17, Casio GP500, and Yamaha NU1X in the same shop. I really disliked the Roland (action/sound), the Casio and Yamaha were generally alright, definitely preferred the Yamaha sound, and preferred the action marginally. Yamaha clearly looks better.

I tried the Kawai CA98 elsewhere - I thought the sound was the best, and the action was very comparable with Casio/Yamaha, but I really disliked the cabinet aesthetics. No CS11 locally. It may be interesting that I thought the CA98 sounded better than the K-300 and K-500; but it sounded significantly worse (and also felt significantly worse) compared to a GX1.

Between the CA98 and the NU1X - if the aesthetics were identical, I would probably get the CA98 (I suspect I just prefer the Kawai sound). However, they're not, and since I expect to be looking at the piano alot more than I'll be playing it (haha), I'm planning on getting the NU1X. Btw, the action of the NU1X might be more authentic, but I wasn't displeased with the CA98 at all - having said that, because I couldn't try them back to back it's hard to say which I actually prefer.

Based on the above, and in spite of the information from the link at the end of this post, I'm planning on a NU1X. Let me know what you reckon? I don't think I've missed any competitive alternative?

In terms of space/positioning - I actually would very much like a piano which is lower than 1m. The NU1X in the showroom seemed to meet that, although the product spec is 1.025m. This is because it will slightly overlap into a bar area - and the bar is at 1m. hahahaha. I think the 2.5cm is probably alright.


http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2692345/yamaha-nu1x-defect.html

Last edited by xand; 06/21/18 10:28 AM.
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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746094
06/21/18 12:42 PM
06/21/18 12:42 PM
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It seems like you've already made an educated decision towards buying a digital piano to fit your needs and purposes. Why do you want us to talk you out of it?

Both the Kawai CA98 and Yammy NU1X are excellent top-of-the-range instruments. The NU1X has an excellent action that's very similar to an upright, while the Kawai CA98 has the Grand Feel 2 which attempts to simulate a grand piano action. In my city, the NU1X is about 1.8x the price of the CA98, so for me it's the Kawai. But if you are loaded and price is non-factor, then go with the NU1X. Try to get the best deal you can with the dealer.

Is the kid beginner, intermediate or advanced? For me personally if the kid is starting out, I'd just get something simple and decent starter instrument (in case he/she gives up) such as the Casio PX160, Kawai ES110, Roland FP30, Yamaha P125, and then upgrade down the track. But if you are loaded then definitely go for the best! cool


Kawai CA78 | Kawai ES110 | Kawai Upright | Alexander Herrmann Upright (Sold) | Korg SP170 (Sold) | JBL LSR305 // Pianoteq Stage // CFX Lite
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746097
06/21/18 12:55 PM
06/21/18 12:55 PM
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This morning I spent an hour and half playing both the NU1X and the CA78. The NU1X has the heavier action so that is something you might consider with regard to your child. I'm used to playing on all sorts of pianos and adjust accordingly but after an hour I started noticing that. As for the sounds obviously it is your preference that matters. Both of them offer a number of alternatives. The menu system on the Yamaha is a simple button one, but the GUI of the Kawai - well, I am not a fan of it. But the main criteria should be the action and the sounds.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746100
06/21/18 01:05 PM
06/21/18 01:05 PM
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You should at least skim read this thread for awarenesss or your own investigation. I own the former NU1, more than 5 years now and think it’s great. I gave my opinion in that thread, as a minority crazy

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746105
06/21/18 01:23 PM
06/21/18 01:23 PM
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Believe me, I'm in the same boat you are. By next year at the latest I would like to buy either the CA98 or NU1X, and I'm trying to figure out which I would be most satisfied with over the course of the next five years or so. For me it's a purely personal decision, but here's what I'm thinking....

1. Tone--This is the most important consideration. Your listeners aren't going to touch the keyboard, but they will experience what comes out of the slab you're playing. When I test both pianos within the next couple of months, the videos I'm seeing on YouTube give me the impression that the CA98 isn't going to have to take a back seat to the NU1X. Moreover, there appears to be greater tonal variety with the Kawai. Still, Yamaha's default CFX tone is the equal of the best sampled tones I've heard anywhere. For me at least, I have a feeling that Kawai will have a very slight edge in this department.

2. Touch--I believe Yamaha will win in this category, but maybe not by as much as one would think. Just recently I played the NU1 and really liked the acoustic upright action, and I'm told that the action of the NU1X will be even better (more attuned to grand piano action, if that's actually possible). I haven't played the CA98 but the action of the Grand Feel I on my Kawai CA65 isn't bad at all, and so I would think the GFII feel of the CA98 could at least be acceptable. Even so, this is NU1X's bread-and-butter, so Yamaha will win this one.

3. Looks--Really? Let's move on.

4. Sustain action--I'll bet you never considered this. Before buying, fully test the sustain actions, and how they affect the tone in both pianos. The future may be different, but the NU1 I tested has it all over the CA65, and every other digital piano I tested; the comparison wasn't even close. But I haven't tried the CA98.

5. Everyday practice--Let's face it, practicing is boring. Absolutely necessary, but boring. What I've found is that it's a lot more tolerable when I can easily include accompanying sounds when trying to smooth out passages. With my Kawai CA65 at least, that's very easy. As for the NU1X...Oh well, even John Wayne didn't get the wagons in a circle every time.

6. Lighting--Huh? What am I talking about? Well, with the CA98, that brightly lit large display is great for punching in different instruments and adjusting tones, but I don't think it looks too awfully good when someone is watching you play. I suppose it's okay on the CA98, since it looks like nothing more than a digital piano (sort of like the way a plastic pink flamingo looks good on a mobile home lawn), but wisely the NU1X is more appropriately understated.

7. Features--Kawai's big selling point, one that allows the company to compete on an even level with Yamaha. The NU1X is just a piano--forget the frills--and if that's all you want, why pay less for a more feature-rich piano. The NU1X doesn't do much, but what it does is superb indeed. The CA98, on the other hand, is very good value for the money, but is not so attractive. Then again, my fifteen-year-old Siamese cat, Lisa, is anything but pretty, but I wouldn't give her up for the world. Learn to feel the love.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746106
06/21/18 01:24 PM
06/21/18 01:24 PM
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One thing to consider is how hard the action is on the NU1 at the back of the keys. This can make some pieces very awkward.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: johnstaf] #2746109
06/21/18 01:50 PM
06/21/18 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
One thing to consider is how hard the action is on the NU1 at the back of the keys. This can make some pieces very awkward.


+1

I like the sound and look of the NU1X but the action feels awkward in that manner (like all accoustic uprights) for me.

Last edited by Tyr; 06/21/18 01:50 PM.

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746111
06/21/18 02:01 PM
06/21/18 02:01 PM
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ADWyatt - yes, the Kawai has more tonal variety in the piano department. Regarding touch and action, it is a bit like the sound department as different people are physically different and perceive actions differently. To say that either is more or less like an acoustic upright or grand is misleading as acoustics vary widely. Neither of them, or indeed any of the digitals, can compare with the best concert grands.

For what it is worth I don't think either of them have the dynamic range of the modelled Roland LX's but that is not really relevant here. I did detect some slight spiking on the Yamaha. I'm afraid I have no idea how you play at the back of the keys.

Xand - again it comes down to the age of your child, whether he or she is going to be the main player and personal preferences.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: ADWyatt] #2746138
06/21/18 04:01 PM
06/21/18 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ADWyatt
6. Lighting--Huh? What am I talking about? Well, with the CA98, that brightly lit large display is great for punching in different instruments and adjusting tones, but I don't think it looks too awfully good when someone is watching you play. I suppose it's okay on the CA98, since it looks like nothing more than a digital piano (sort of like the way a plastic pink flamingo looks good on a mobile home lawn), but wisely the NU1X is more appropriately understated.

If that is important to you, you should know that the CA98/CA78 has a "display auto off" option that switches off the display after a few seconds of not using the touch screen. It doesn't go totally black, but dark enough so that it is no longer distracting.

Last edited by JoBert; 06/21/18 04:02 PM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746140
06/21/18 04:23 PM
06/21/18 04:23 PM
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As long as you're thinking about buying an NU1X, why not simply spend a tad more and buy (or rent) an N1?

As a professional pianist I like the NU1 because I find an upright piano action more difficult to control than a grand piano action. I own an N3 and have given serious thought of buying an NU1 just to have more of a workout during my daily practice session.

I won't talk you out of buying (or renting) the NU1X.


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746184
06/21/18 07:39 PM
06/21/18 07:39 PM
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xand, may I ask where you are based, please?

Kind regards,
James
x


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Colin Miles] #2746203
06/21/18 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I'm afraid I have no idea how you play at the back of the keys.


As you have an LX7 with a PHA50 action, this wouldn’t be a problem for you. I upgraded from a Kawai MP10 for this reason, and I love the Roland action.

If you have your thumb and little finger on black keys and want to use your index finger on a white note, you will usually have to place that finger nearer to the fall board. On many actions, the reduced leverage at the back of the key makes this very uncomfortable. This is easier on a grand piano, and the best digitals except the NU1.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/21/18 08:54 PM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Kawai James] #2746204
06/21/18 08:57 PM
06/21/18 08:57 PM
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xand Offline OP
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Thanks for your replies everyone! Will go through but to answer one thing quickly -

Originally Posted by Kawai James
xand, may I ask where you are based, please?


I'm in Singapore - I believe Kawai is represented only through a dealer. Note also that the CA98 locally has no Bluetooth, and only a one year warranty... (The lack of Bluetooth may also be true for the NU1X).

On the NV10, I've been told also that there won't be a demo (or no plans), it's available for purchase but at 2.4x the price of the NU1X (Sight unseen which doesn't work for me, delivery end 2018/early 2019 with a 50% deposit which is also a big ask). For reference the NU1X is 1.23x the cost of the CA98).

Last edited by xand; 06/21/18 09:06 PM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746210
06/21/18 09:36 PM
06/21/18 09:36 PM
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xand, thank you for your reply, and for the additional information regarding local pricing.

Originally Posted by xand
I'm in Singapore - I believe Kawai is represented only through a dealer.


Ah, I see. Yes, you are correct, in Singapore Kawai is distributed by Robert Piano.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746211
06/21/18 09:39 PM
06/21/18 09:39 PM
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By spec, CAX8 series all have Bluetooth. I tried CA48, 78, 98 in my local dealer and all of them have Bluetooth.

I don't know why they remove or disable Bluetooth in Singapore.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: ArtlessArt] #2746224
06/22/18 12:22 AM
06/22/18 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by ArtlessArt
It seems like you've already made an educated decision towards buying a digital piano to fit your needs and purposes. Why do you want us to talk you out of it?


I might be missing something.

Quote
In my city, the NU1X is about 1.8x the price of the CA98, so for me it's the Kawai.
If it was 1.8X here, I might reconsider - the difference is 1.23x.

Quote

Is the kid beginner, intermediate or advanced? For me personally if the kid is starting out, I'd just get something simple and decent starter instrument (in case he/she gives up)


Kid probably won't start for a year. It is also for me! smile

Originally Posted by Colin Miles
The NU1X has the heavier action so that is something you might consider with regard to your child.


They will need to suck it up. Haha. It's not clear that lessons will be on a grand anyhow, and I judge the action as similar enough that adapting should be fine - I think you'd agree with that. Also good for finger strength/dexterity!

Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
I own the former NU1, more than 5 years now and think it’s great. I gave my opinion in that thread, as a minority crazy


Thanks! I've read it - I think it's also linked in my OP.

Originally Posted by ADWyatt
3. Looks--Really? Let's move on.
I'm shallow :p

Quote
4. Sustain action--I'll bet you never considered this. Before buying, fully test the sustain actions, and how they affect the tone in both pianos.
I did try the sustain I didn't feel there was a very marked difference actually. I wasn't really thinking about this very seriously so perhaps I'll try that again if I decide to test the CA98 again.

Quote
7. Features--Kawai's big selling point, one that allows the company to compete on an even level with Yamaha. The NU1X is just a piano
I'm normally a sucker for a deal, and I agree with this, but... (*whispers* I'm shallow)

Originally Posted by johnstaf
One thing to consider is how hard the action is on the NU1 at the back of the keys. This can make some pieces very awkward.


I think that'll be fine... It's a matter of practice for the kid!

Originally Posted by Colin Miles
For what it is worth I don't think either of them have the dynamic range of the modelled Roland LX's but that is not really relevant here.


Coling - what you're saying is that the Roland LX17 should have a bigger difference between playing sss/fff?

Originally Posted by Dave Horne
As long as you're thinking about buying an NU1X, why not simply spend a tad more and buy (or rent) an N1?


It's no longer available (says Yamaha directly), and the dealer I tried the various options at doesn't stock it (or even the N3X).

Originally Posted by Kenny Cheng
I don't know why they remove or disable Bluetooth in Singapore.


It's probably a telecommunications licensing "issue" - more perceived than real, I'd guess the dealer is not willing to fill in the relevant forms/carry out the relevant testing. I've just confirmed that the NU1X is the same (it has bluetooth but not in Singapore). Pffft.

Kawai_James: To fix the issue (which I think should be relatively straightforward because the Singapore telecommunication licensing regime is not really ridiculously difficult) you could have your AsiaPac team call "equipment registration" at the following link, and they'll guide Kawai throught the relevant process. Unfortunately it might need to be done per model. https://www.imda.gov.sg/regulations-licensing-and-consultations/licensing/licensing-hotlines

Last edited by xand; 06/22/18 12:30 AM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746226
06/22/18 12:27 AM
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If the N1 is no longer available, that could mean that the N1X is about to make an appearance.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746228
06/22/18 12:42 AM
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There's an NU1 going on ebay for £1500 . . .buy it now price.


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: johnstaf] #2746265
06/22/18 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I'm afraid I have no idea how you play at the back of the keys.


As you have an LX7 with a PHA50 action, this wouldn’t be a problem for you. I upgraded from a Kawai MP10 for this reason, and I love the Roland action.

If you have your thumb and little finger on black keys and want to use your index finger on a white note, you will usually have to place that finger nearer to the fall board. On many actions, the reduced leverage at the back of the key makes this very uncomfortable. This is easier on a grand piano, and the best digitals except the NU1.


I just tried this. Can't see the need to play at the back. Isn't this a matter of technique? Or maybe physical differences in the hand?

Xand - no, the dynamic range isn't just ppp/fff, it's more subtle than that. You need to play the various pianos to appreciate it.

As for finger strength, well maybe your child will develop that but it could be off-putting to start with. But I get the feeling this is more about you.


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Colin Miles] #2746271
06/22/18 05:13 AM
06/22/18 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I'm afraid I have no idea how you play at the back of the keys.


As you have an LX7 with a PHA50 action, this wouldn’t be a problem for you. I upgraded from a Kawai MP10 for this reason, and I love the Roland action.

If you have your thumb and little finger on black keys and want to use your index finger on a white note, you will usually have to place that finger nearer to the fall board. On many actions, the reduced leverage at the back of the key makes this very uncomfortable. This is easier on a grand piano, and the best digitals except the NU1.


I just tried this. Can't see the need to play at the back. Isn't this a matter of technique? Or maybe physical differences in the hand?

Xand - no, the dynamic range isn't just ppp/fff, it's more subtle than that. You need to play the various pianos to appreciate it.

As for finger strength, well maybe your child will develop that but it could be off-putting to start with. But I get the feeling this is more about you.


I have a Kawai CA67 and its very easy to play the black keys at the back. However, I was discussing this with my Piano Teacher in relation to a Yamaha 125 that I had tried see my post here
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2744888
As I felt it was the best of the three similarly priced keyboards, but the fact I couldn't play it at the back ruled it out. She told me my technique is wrong if I have to play it at the back and that I should not be concerned about it. In particular she said you should curl your fingers more to avoid the back. In fact she was more concerned about the lack of feel as the keys hit the keybed which would be a problem of any keyboard at that price (she also teaches my grandson and thinks he could become quite good and would need that feel).

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: peterws] #2746286
06/22/18 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
There's an NU1 going on ebay for £1500 . . .buy it now price.


!!!!


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: akc42] #2746295
06/22/18 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by akc42
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I'm afraid I have no idea how you play at the back of the keys.


As you have an LX7 with a PHA50 action, this wouldn’t be a problem for you. I upgraded from a Kawai MP10 for this reason, and I love the Roland action.

If you have your thumb and little finger on black keys and want to use your index finger on a white note, you will usually have to place that finger nearer to the fall board. On many actions, the reduced leverage at the back of the key makes this very uncomfortable. This is easier on a grand piano, and the best digitals except the NU1.


I just tried this. Can't see the need to play at the back. Isn't this a matter of technique? Or maybe physical differences in the hand?

Xand - no, the dynamic range isn't just ppp/fff, it's more subtle than that. You need to play the various pianos to appreciate it.

As for finger strength, well maybe your child will develop that but it could be off-putting to start with. But I get the feeling this is more about you.


I have a Kawai CA67 and its very easy to play the black keys at the back. However, I was discussing this with my Piano Teacher in relation to a Yamaha 125 that I had tried see my post here
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2744888
As I felt it was the best of the three similarly priced keyboards, but the fact I couldn't play it at the back ruled it out. She told me my technique is wrong if I have to play it at the back and that I should not be concerned about it. In particular she said you should curl your fingers more to avoid the back. In fact she was more concerned about the lack of feel as the keys hit the keybed which would be a problem of any keyboard at that price (she also teaches my grandson and thinks he could become quite good and would need that feel).



While I'm no expert, I don't feel that is a problem of technique, but has more to do with what you're playing .
In my (unprofessional) opinion, the teacher was either exaggerating, either plain wrong, or she was referring to those situations in which there is virtually no reason to play at the back at the keys. Otherwise, there are pieces where it's unavoidable and natural to play at the back of the keys.
I just tried Moonlight sonata, and even trying not to play at the back of the keys, there were plenty of places where I was 1" away from the fallboard - trying to the point where some positions were unnatural and forced. Were I to play it with a relaxed hand and the usual positions, I would've been right up to the fall board. I'm sure there are plenty of other pieces that require "going deep".

And because I'm no expert, let's take Kempff and Barenboim's recordings as proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5OaSju0qNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6txOvK-mAk

Or Kissin and Lang Lang:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ar2walNs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJL3D1kuCyY

I'm pretty sure the piano teacher wouldn't accuse the world-class pianists above of poor technique. There are probably plenty of other examples of great pianists who play it in the same position. Because it's the natural way to do it.
To play Bach's C Major prelude from WTC I from start to finish at the back of the keys would be improper technique, indeed, but generalizing that you shouldn't play at the back of the keys is wrong in my opinion.
A piano should have keys that are long enough to allow playing at the back of the keys reasonably well in my opinion. The very short keys may be ok for a beginner or for some repertoire, but will be lacking in other situations. It doesn't mean a piano with short keys is garbage, but in certain scenarios it won't be so satisfactorily to play. That's why I was not a fan of the VPC1 for instance. But others like it and don't care that much about this aspect.

Personally I have a Roland HP504 (PHA4- premium) and I find the key length is already very workable. The GF2 is better yet. The RM3-II in the VPC1, the Casio action and a fair number of others (including the NU1x) are on the short side in my opinion. Key length is not the single most important aspect of an action, far from it, but it has its significance nonetheless.

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by peterws
There's an NU1 going on ebay for £1500 . . .buy it now price.


!!!!


Since we're talking about buying decisions, this here is a very solid Pro argument!

Last edited by mcoll; 06/22/18 08:39 AM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: mcoll] #2746331
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I have also just tried the Moonlight Sonata and yes you do need to curl the fingers. Not good to get at the back.

But this brings me on to another point which is that hands, arms and general body weight and strength are all crucial in both how we play and how we can play. Reading the many comments on action and touch for different pianos shows this up clearly.


Roland LX7

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746352
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As an NU1 user, with small hands, I often have to play the white keys at the back between black keys, and the black keys. I have no problem at all, and my comparison point is my teachers baby grand. In my opinion many of the higher priced digitals do indeed have a smoother, possibly lighter and easier action, but in no way typical of most acoustics, except perhaps for finely regulated grands. When I had a decent DP, or two, I had a lot of trouble sitting down at an acoustic and just playing, just couldn’t do it as the action was so different. I’m with Dave Horne on this one, but each to their own and whatever their use or requirement is.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746365
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There are some pieces where you can’t avoid playing at the back, and technique can’t overcome the difficulty. On the best Kawai, Roland, Yamaha and Casio DP actions it’s not a problem. The NU1 is great, but there are some pieces it’s easier to play on a grand.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/22/18 01:27 PM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746367
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I don't think it's a problem for many dps now. Apart from the smaller Yamahas.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746371
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I am investigating a lot of digitals, and acoustics, so I am bearing all this in mind. But as peterws has said, not really a problem on most of the dps now.

Spanishbuddha - surprised by the difficult in adjusting to an acoustic. If you had a decent digital then moving to an acoustic shouldn't present a problem.


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746373
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Most dps mimicking a grand action, so it is not a problem.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Colin Miles] #2746374
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I have also just tried the Moonlight Sonata and yes you do need to curl the fingers. Not good to get at the back.

But this brings me on to another point which is that hands, arms and general body weight and strength are all crucial in both how we play and how we can play. Reading the many comments on action and touch for different pianos shows this up clearly.


I'm not sure I understand - are you saying you shouldn't play at the back of the keys at any moment during the 1st movement (that's the one I know and to which I'm referring)?

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: mcoll] #2746378
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Then there’s the first movement left hand in Chopin sonata no. 2, from bar 9.

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