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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: peterws] #2746286
06/22/18 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by peterws
There's an NU1 going on ebay for £1500 . . .buy it now price.


!!!!


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: akc42] #2746295
06/22/18 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by akc42
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I'm afraid I have no idea how you play at the back of the keys.


As you have an LX7 with a PHA50 action, this wouldn’t be a problem for you. I upgraded from a Kawai MP10 for this reason, and I love the Roland action.

If you have your thumb and little finger on black keys and want to use your index finger on a white note, you will usually have to place that finger nearer to the fall board. On many actions, the reduced leverage at the back of the key makes this very uncomfortable. This is easier on a grand piano, and the best digitals except the NU1.


I just tried this. Can't see the need to play at the back. Isn't this a matter of technique? Or maybe physical differences in the hand?

Xand - no, the dynamic range isn't just ppp/fff, it's more subtle than that. You need to play the various pianos to appreciate it.

As for finger strength, well maybe your child will develop that but it could be off-putting to start with. But I get the feeling this is more about you.


I have a Kawai CA67 and its very easy to play the black keys at the back. However, I was discussing this with my Piano Teacher in relation to a Yamaha 125 that I had tried see my post here
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2744888
As I felt it was the best of the three similarly priced keyboards, but the fact I couldn't play it at the back ruled it out. She told me my technique is wrong if I have to play it at the back and that I should not be concerned about it. In particular she said you should curl your fingers more to avoid the back. In fact she was more concerned about the lack of feel as the keys hit the keybed which would be a problem of any keyboard at that price (she also teaches my grandson and thinks he could become quite good and would need that feel).



While I'm no expert, I don't feel that is a problem of technique, but has more to do with what you're playing .
In my (unprofessional) opinion, the teacher was either exaggerating, either plain wrong, or she was referring to those situations in which there is virtually no reason to play at the back at the keys. Otherwise, there are pieces where it's unavoidable and natural to play at the back of the keys.
I just tried Moonlight sonata, and even trying not to play at the back of the keys, there were plenty of places where I was 1" away from the fallboard - trying to the point where some positions were unnatural and forced. Were I to play it with a relaxed hand and the usual positions, I would've been right up to the fall board. I'm sure there are plenty of other pieces that require "going deep".

And because I'm no expert, let's take Kempff and Barenboim's recordings as proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5OaSju0qNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6txOvK-mAk

Or Kissin and Lang Lang:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ar2walNs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJL3D1kuCyY

I'm pretty sure the piano teacher wouldn't accuse the world-class pianists above of poor technique. There are probably plenty of other examples of great pianists who play it in the same position. Because it's the natural way to do it.
To play Bach's C Major prelude from WTC I from start to finish at the back of the keys would be improper technique, indeed, but generalizing that you shouldn't play at the back of the keys is wrong in my opinion.
A piano should have keys that are long enough to allow playing at the back of the keys reasonably well in my opinion. The very short keys may be ok for a beginner or for some repertoire, but will be lacking in other situations. It doesn't mean a piano with short keys is garbage, but in certain scenarios it won't be so satisfactorily to play. That's why I was not a fan of the VPC1 for instance. But others like it and don't care that much about this aspect.

Personally I have a Roland HP504 (PHA4- premium) and I find the key length is already very workable. The GF2 is better yet. The RM3-II in the VPC1, the Casio action and a fair number of others (including the NU1x) are on the short side in my opinion. Key length is not the single most important aspect of an action, far from it, but it has its significance nonetheless.

Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by peterws
There's an NU1 going on ebay for £1500 . . .buy it now price.


!!!!


Since we're talking about buying decisions, this here is a very solid Pro argument!

Last edited by mcoll; 06/22/18 09:39 AM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: mcoll] #2746331
06/22/18 11:51 AM
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I have also just tried the Moonlight Sonata and yes you do need to curl the fingers. Not good to get at the back.

But this brings me on to another point which is that hands, arms and general body weight and strength are all crucial in both how we play and how we can play. Reading the many comments on action and touch for different pianos shows this up clearly.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746352
06/22/18 01:11 PM
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As an NU1 user, with small hands, I often have to play the white keys at the back between black keys, and the black keys. I have no problem at all, and my comparison point is my teachers baby grand. In my opinion many of the higher priced digitals do indeed have a smoother, possibly lighter and easier action, but in no way typical of most acoustics, except perhaps for finely regulated grands. When I had a decent DP, or two, I had a lot of trouble sitting down at an acoustic and just playing, just couldn’t do it as the action was so different. I’m with Dave Horne on this one, but each to their own and whatever their use or requirement is.

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746365
06/22/18 02:20 PM
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There are some pieces where you can’t avoid playing at the back, and technique can’t overcome the difficulty. On the best Kawai, Roland, Yamaha and Casio DP actions it’s not a problem. The NU1 is great, but there are some pieces it’s easier to play on a grand.

Last edited by johnstaf; 06/22/18 02:27 PM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746367
06/22/18 02:27 PM
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I don't think it's a problem for many dps now. Apart from the smaller Yamahas.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746371
06/22/18 02:44 PM
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I am investigating a lot of digitals, and acoustics, so I am bearing all this in mind. But as peterws has said, not really a problem on most of the dps now.

Spanishbuddha - surprised by the difficult in adjusting to an acoustic. If you had a decent digital then moving to an acoustic shouldn't present a problem.


Roland LX7

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746373
06/22/18 02:53 PM
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Most dps mimicking a grand action, so it is not a problem.


Current: Yamaha NU1X | Roland FP-30 with Garritan CFX Lite & Pianoteq 6
Past: Yamaha: P-115, YDP-163, CLP-545, CLP-685 | Kawai: CA-98, Novus NV10
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Colin Miles] #2746374
06/22/18 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I have also just tried the Moonlight Sonata and yes you do need to curl the fingers. Not good to get at the back.

But this brings me on to another point which is that hands, arms and general body weight and strength are all crucial in both how we play and how we can play. Reading the many comments on action and touch for different pianos shows this up clearly.


I'm not sure I understand - are you saying you shouldn't play at the back of the keys at any moment during the 1st movement (that's the one I know and to which I'm referring)?

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: mcoll] #2746378
06/22/18 03:39 PM
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Then there’s the first movement left hand in Chopin sonata no. 2, from bar 9.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746383
06/22/18 04:03 PM
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Very good example, johnstaf!
And look at this amateur pianist, with poor technique and fingers as straight as chopsticks playing right next to the fall board:
https://youtu.be/gHZHy2B6MCc
Ivo something.. Pogorelich was it? And his fingers are as curled as they get when he's playing at the very end of the keys.

The point is there are pieces out there that simply demand that one plays deep into the keys. Even in the moonlight sonata, I'm not sure what you mean above, Colin, but playing certain passages any other way than close to the fall board is forced and unnatural. Even with the fingers curled in a proper position, you still get close to the fall board - unless your thumb and your pinky reach 1-2 inches further than the index and middle finger, in an impressive rake-like hand. But that would result in other pieces where you normally play at the tip of the keys to have your thumb and pinky playing next to the fall board ha

There's no way around it - there are plenty of passages that demand playing deep into the keys with a natural, proper biomechanical hand position and that's the proper technique in those cases.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Colin Miles] #2746393
06/22/18 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles

Spanishbuddha - surprised by the difficult in adjusting to an acoustic. If you had a decent digital then moving to an acoustic shouldn't present a problem.

I don’t agree, let’s agree to disagree. I also keep up with playing the latest actions from Kawai, Roland and Yamaha, none of them, IMHO of course, simulate the escapement hammer throw point accurately at all, and encountering this on an acoustic after months of digital practice was just too offputting. Then there’s the loudness or control problem, then there’s the sustain and pedal, but I’m veering OT the OT.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: spanishbuddha] #2746399
06/22/18 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by Colin Miles

Spanishbuddha - surprised by the difficult in adjusting to an acoustic. If you had a decent digital then moving to an acoustic shouldn't present a problem.

I don’t agree, let’s agree to disagree. I also keep up with playing the latest actions from Kawai, Roland and Yamaha, none of them, IMHO of course, simulate the escapement hammer throw point accurately at all, and encountering this on an acoustic after months of digital practice was just too offputting. Then there’s the loudness or control problem, then there’s the sustain and pedal, but I’m veering OT the OT.


I grew up practicing on a nice Young Chang baby grand at my parents house for 20+ years. I've always loved that piano, and enjoyed playing it. Anytime I would visit my parents, I would be excited to play.

I have been lucky enough to own a Yamaha N1 for the past 6 months, and play on it non stop at home. I'm absolutely in love with the thing, and can't get enough. I can relate with spanishbuddha, because I went home to my parents house not too long ago and was excited to hear the new stuff I've been practicing on the acoustic. It was extremely off putting as well, and I had trouble enjoying playing it for more than 5 minutes. Everything just felt off, the sound, the touch, loudness control, etc... I feel like an elitist wine snob now...

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Egorbopol] #2746406
06/22/18 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Egorbopol
Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
Originally Posted by Colin Miles

Spanishbuddha - surprised by the difficult in adjusting to an acoustic. If you had a decent digital then moving to an acoustic shouldn't present a problem.

I don’t agree, let’s agree to disagree. I also keep up with playing the latest actions from Kawai, Roland and Yamaha, none of them, IMHO of course, simulate the escapement hammer throw point accurately at all, and encountering this oyn an acoustic after months of digital practice was just too offputting. Then there’s the loudness or control problem, then there’s the sustain and pedal, but I’m veering OT the OT.


I grew up practicing on a nice Young Chang baby grand at my parents house for 20+ years. I've always loved that piano, and enjoyed playing it. Anytime I would visit my parents, I would be excited to play.

I have been lucky enough to own a Yamaha N1 for the past 6 months, and play on it non stop at home. I'm absolutely in love with the thing, and can't get enough. I can relate with spanishbuddha, because I went home to my parents house not too long ago and was excited to hear the new stuff I've been practicing on the acoustic. It was extremely off putting as well, and I had trouble enjoying playing it for more than 5 minutes. Everything just felt off, the sound, the touch, loudness control, etc... I feel like an elitist wine snob now...


Even people with fine acoustic pianos can have trouble moving from one piano to another, such as the great C20 European pianists who found Steinways unplayable when they toured America. Your experience is not unusual. I suppose we have to prioritise and find something that works for us. The first time I played a grand (thirty years ago), it was a Bösendorfer Imperial in an exam. The response was so different, I was completely thrown. I bought a Fatar keyboard with an action so heavy I almost felt I needed to sit on the keys. This made playing on a wide range of pianos very easy. But it didn’t help me to play well.

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746411
06/22/18 06:48 PM
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Igo is not an amateur pianist! For people like him and Chopin with his rubber hands the normal rules don't apply. But for us ordinary mortals I think that Ack42's teacher is right. But if you feel you must play into the back of the keys then do so.

And if you want to be able to play different pianos then you need to play different pianos. Yes, they will sound and feel different and yes acoustics will be loud, but only as loud as you make them.


Roland LX7

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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746419
06/22/18 08:04 PM
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My piano teacher (this was almost 50 years ago, mind you) had a lemon next to her piano. Yes, a lemon! She would, if I was displaying bad form at the piano, put this under the palm of my hand to remind me that my fingers needed to be curled at all times. I agree that this is not always possible, but it is good form to try to do so, as you gain better control over dynamics.

She also rented for an hour the piano on which practical exams were conducted so that her pupils would get a feel for the instrument on which they would perform. Yes, an exacting but excellent teacher!

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: Colin Miles] #2746453
06/23/18 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Igo is not an amateur pianist! For people like him and Chopin with his rubber hands the normal rules don't apply. But for us ordinary mortals I think that Ack42's teacher is right. But if you feel you must play into the back of the keys then do so.


Obviously. He is up there with the best. As are the 4 other pianists I posted earlier. Some of the best of all times. And my point is that even with curled fingers you still have passages where you play at the back of the keys and it's simply wrong to try to avoid that. That's what I'm trying to explain.
But if you prefer listening to a teacher that hopefully generalized or was misunderstood when she was referring to a specific situation, then go ahead. But if she explicitly believes that one should never play close to the fall board, than she's just plain wrong on that topic. With proof and logic and biomechanics and pianists with superb technique all contradicting her smile

If you know it, I invite you to play the entire 1st movement of the moonlight sonata towards the tip of the keys. That would be a feat of contorsionism requiring rubber hands, not playing it deep into the keys when the situation requires it. Even when exaggerating the hand positions in an unnatural way, to avoid going towards the fall board, there were moments when I was 1" from it. Again, this was with an exaggerated, forced hand position. Normally I'd be almost at the fall board in those sections (as are Kissin, Lang Lang, Barenboim and Kempff in the recordings a few posts back, not that I'm even close to a conservatory graduate, mind you, but it's simply proper technique).

Last edited by mcoll; 06/23/18 02:30 AM.
Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746459
06/23/18 03:18 AM
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Curled fingers would indicate or suggest, a lack of usage of the knuckles which, in turn, might present it's own problems. Later.


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Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: xand] #2746461
06/23/18 04:12 AM
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Huh? Curled fingers => lack of usage of the knuckles?

Re: Talk me out of a Yamaha NU1X [Re: mcoll] #2746469
06/23/18 05:35 AM
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[quote=mcoll)

If you know it, I invite you to play the entire 1st movement of the moonlight sonata towards the tip of the keys. That would be a feat of contorsionism requiring rubber hands, not playing it deep into the keys when the situation requires it. Even when exaggerating the hand positions in an unnatural way, to avoid going towards the fall board, there were moments when I was 1" from it. [/quote]

Just done that. It is actually a useful exercise and brought home to me the importance of curling the fingers, particularly the index finger. Obviously you will be close to the back when playing on the black notes, but my understanding is that we are talking about playing in between them. That is when you get on to the talk about pivot points.

And coming back to another topic about playing on different pianos, when I was young - a very long time ago - and playing exams, competitions, orchestras, etc., and all sorts of pianos, there was no question about getting accustomed to a piano, or indeed the environment. You, like everyone else, just got on to a piano and played it. Yes, these were acoustics, but all manner of uprights and grands from the best to the somewhat grotty. Why is it so difficult nowadays?


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
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