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HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY #2745193 06/17/18 11:12 PM
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MICHAEL122 Offline OP
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I understand that if a flat symbol appears before a note in the melody line {treble clef}, all the notes of the same pitch are also flats in the rest of the melody line for that measure.
Is this also true for notes of the same pitch in the bass line {bass clef} of that measure?
Thanks in advance for all responses!

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Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745219 06/18/18 02:23 AM
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Do you mean like an A two ledger lines below the treble staff and then an A on the top line of the bass staff? Those two are the same pitch, just written differently.

That's an interesting question and I asked it here before although I never found a definite answer either way. My take would be that because it's the exact same pitch the flat should apply but it would be pretty stupid for an editor to write it like that.


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Working on:
Mozart Sonata in G major, K. 283
Moszkowski Etude op. 91 no. 18
Chopin Nocturne in C-sharp minor, op. posth.
Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745224 06/18/18 03:11 AM
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Hi Michael,

In my limited experience, the note in the bass clef would also be marked with it's own sharp/flat

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745247 06/18/18 06:12 AM
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Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
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No. Each accidental applies only to ONE KEY on the keyboard.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2745253 06/18/18 06:51 AM
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zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
No. Each accidental applies only to ONE KEY on the keyboard.

If this held how would Ax be affected by a prior Bb accidental?

Any score worth paying for would have courtesy accidentals to cover such situations but in their absence I would treat each staff as needing its own accidentals and therefore read each accidental as relating to only ONE NOTE on a staff.

Compare an orchestral score or that of a string quartet.


Richard
Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745317 06/18/18 11:06 AM
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MICHAEL122 Offline OP
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To make absolute certain everyone understands what my issue is about:
On a grand staff; I know that a given note, let's say a "G", marked as a flat {or sharp or natural} makes all G's flat for the rest of that measure; even if they're in a different octave.
Are all G's flat on the bass clef for that same measure?
Seems odd that my experience hasn't come across this before...
Thank you, everybody, for your responses.
Leaning toward concluding that accidentals written on the treble clef apply only to the treble clef and NOT the bass clef.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2745320 06/18/18 11:10 AM
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Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
No. Each accidental applies only to ONE KEY on the keyboard.

Each accidental applies only to one line or space within a staff.

If the same key is shown in both clefs, you need an accidental for both.

This will fool notation programs. You have to override them. Also, if the same note appears twice in the same clef, same measure, if the second uses an octave sign so that it appears on a different line/space, again you need another accidental.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745321 06/18/18 11:11 AM
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Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted by MICHAEL122
To make absolute certain everyone understands what my issue is about:
On a grand staff; I know that a given note, let's say a "G", marked as a flat {or sharp or natural} makes all G's flat for the rest of that measure; even if they're in a different octave.
Are all G's flat on the bass clef for that same measure?
Seems odd that my experience hasn't come across this before...
Thank you, everybody, for your responses.
Leaning toward concluding that accidentals written on the treble clef apply only to the treble clef and NOT the bass clef.

You are correct.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: zrtf90] #2745322 06/18/18 11:13 AM
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Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
No. Each accidental applies only to ONE KEY on the keyboard.

If this held how would Ax be affected by a prior Bb accidental?

Any score worth paying for would have courtesy accidentals to cover such situations but in their absence I would treat each staff as needing its own accidentals and therefore read each accidental as relating to only ONE NOTE on a staff.

Compare an orchestral score or that of a string quartet.


Also, when notes are written cross-staff, so that you are seeing the same line or space in two staves, each stave has to have its own accidentals even when it is the same line or space.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745324 06/18/18 11:17 AM
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Hi Gary
Did I miss understand your original answer? Accidentals only apply to notes in the same octave Within the measure, don’t they? The OP thinks the accidental also applies to different octaves within the stave


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Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745325 06/18/18 11:24 AM
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I use a computer notation program. And if you insert a sharp beside the a note on the Treble Clef, it would affect all the same notes (whether it is a higher or lower note) on the Treble Clef but would have no effect on the same notes on the Bass. The program treats the accidentals on each Clef separately so I've always assumed this to be the case. Like if you put a sharp next to a C on the Treble Clef, it would make all the Cs (higher or lower) in the Treble Clef a sharp but not the Cs in the Bass Clef.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: thepianoplayer416] #2745341 06/18/18 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
I use a computer notation program. And if you insert a sharp beside the a note on the Treble Clef, it would affect all the same notes (whether it is a higher or lower note) on the Treble Clef but would have no effect on the same notes on the Bass. The program treats the accidentals on each Clef separately so I've always assumed this to be the case. Like if you put a sharp next to a C on the Treble Clef, it would make all the Cs (higher or lower) in the Treble Clef a sharp but not the Cs in the Bass Clef.


Although that is the convention used in a computer notation practice, I don’t believe this is historical pedagogy: accidentals do not apply to different octaves of the same pitch

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_(music).

I’m not aware this has changed


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745351 06/18/18 01:10 PM
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To make everything clear as mud, er, I mean spring water, an accidental in a measure applies to all the same notes (i.e. of the same pitch) in the same measure in the same clef only, unless it's subsequently canceled. And it doesn't matter which hand plays that note or which direction the stem is in.

And it most definitely doesn't apply to other octaves of that note.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: Gary D.] #2745357 06/18/18 01:52 PM
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Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
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Yes, Gary D. is correct. It applies to one key on one clef. That is correct.

Last edited by Iaroslav Vasiliev; 06/18/18 02:02 PM.
Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745366 06/18/18 02:21 PM
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The word "key" is problematic in English. Iaroslav, I saw your post while you were still puzzling out an answer and was thinking this through myself - I still want to explore this.

As we know, "key" can mean "piano key" - and it can also be short for "key signature". One should say "key signature of C major" but we often say "key of C". On the other hand, we might think of the white key which, when you press it, gives you the note C, and decide to call it the C key or at least imagine it that way.

We're discussing accidentals here. As has been said, they apply to one specific note on that line or space in that top or bottom clef, and only that one. So F# (accidental) in the first space of the top treble clef will apply to all F's appearing in the space, in that measure. We're all saying that.

Music also modulates. Much of the time that is shown by a change of key signature, but not always. Sometimes it's temporary, and there are accidentals. Supposing your piece is in D major with two sharps in the signature. Then the composer switches to A major, but he merely keeps adding accidental to all C's to make them C#. In this case, the key (of A major) must be reflected in both clefs, through accidentals on all the C's wherever they occur.

That is how I understood this:
Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
No. Each accidental applies only to ONE KEY on the keyboard.

Each accidental applies only to one line or space within a staff.

If the same key is shown in both clefs, you need an accidental for both.

Iaroslav, in yours you meant "piano key". Gary, by "same key" I think it was like the example of D major becoming A major through accidentals (sharps) on all the C's.

Do I have this correct?

(I have always disliked the ambiguity of the word "key". As if music weren't complicated enough as it is.) smile

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745406 06/18/18 05:05 PM
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MICHAEL122 Offline OP
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We may be taking the topic somewhere it doesn't need to go.
Would seem we all agree that an accidental appearing in a treble clef does NOT apply to the bass clef regardless if it is the same note or not.
It appears, 2 agree with me that an accidental applies to a given note as well as that note's appearance in any octave for that clef and inside the same measure, and 2 disagree with the any other octave indication.
Upon reviewing verbiage form the link cited above, it clearly states and I quote;
"If a note has an accidental and the note is repeated in a different octave within the same measure, the accidental does NOT {emphasis added} apply to the same note of the different octave." This single sentence appears to be the best evidence yet provided.
My thanks to dogperson for the best credible resolution to this debate so far.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745413 06/18/18 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MICHAEL122
Would seem we all agree that an accidental appearing in a treble clef does NOT apply to the bass clef regardless if it is the same note or not. [ /quote ]
Yes.
[quote]Upon reviewing verbiage form the link cited above, it clearly states and I quote;
"If a note has an accidental and the note is repeated in a different octave within the same measure, the accidental does NOT {emphasis added} apply to the same note of the different octave." This single sentence appears to be the best evidence yet provided.

Generally, yes to that too.

I avoided using "treble clef" and "bass clef", and used "top" and "bottom" instead, because you can have two treble clefs, two bass clefs, and the clef signs can move around in music.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745423 06/18/18 05:57 PM
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MICHAEL122 Offline OP
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Want to point something out.
It is well known that anyone can post whatever they desire on wikipedia and do not need to credentialize themselves, at all, to do so.
Just observed that the author of that wikipedia statement does not identify himself as being musically educated or informed in any way.
Rather, he sates he has a myriad of interests in multiple subjects but particularly in I/T.
So, while he supports one of the positions postulated in this thread, his background and accreditation to do so, is in significant doubt.
Very curious to know the musical backgrounds of participants in this thread.
Mine = no degree, never performed, just a guy at home who once had lessons and enjoys whiling away the hours on a piano.
My position came from the only piano teacher I ever had who possesses a DMA and won competitions and of whom I explicitly asked the other octaves question at the time he taught me about accidentals.

Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745430 06/18/18 06:05 PM
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Michael
I would suggest that you do your own research: look at music theory books and see if any of them tell you that an accidental applies to all octaves within a stave. I provided the quickest reference I could find. You are more than welcome to look for something you find to be crediblei


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It’s ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: HOW DO ACCIDENTALS APPLY [Re: MICHAEL122] #2745434 06/18/18 06:23 PM
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MICHAEL122 Offline OP
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dogperson,
Great idea.
Did that prior to my OP, unable to find any direct statement on it, then queried PW as this lot is ostensibly composed of pianists/musicians with the ability to provide musical guidance far beyond the powers of mere mortal men.
Well, some of them anyway.

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