Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Mr. PianoWorld - the full interview
-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
91 registered members (bsntn99, Almaviva, bennevis, Carey, brooster, anotherscott, 26 invisible), 939 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands #2744482
06/14/18 05:41 PM
06/14/18 05:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 613
Germany
B
BerndAB Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
BerndAB  Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 613
Germany
Questions to the forum. ...

I was very much interested since eight years about Steinway grands and their technical properties. Always searching for information regs. originality of a given grand. Now I have done a translation to german for the production/manufacturing statistics especially for the Steinway grands, dropping all information regd. uprights and mainly leaving out information about the squares.

Down an example for the first years only. Main source but not alone is the "bible" of Roy Kehl, some infos from Lieberman, Fostle, Goldenberg etc.

The technical details partly allow an "age checking" besides of the serial number, and so a "second vote" regd. originalty.

Down you'll find the years (here up to 1886 only) and the "grand-relevant" changes. There are a lot of identifying "first grand with.." or "last grand with..." this or that property. So one can derive "timely windows" for grands with properties starting in one and ending in another year - and maybe check a given grand if it fits into it's proper "time window".

Two questions in this matter

A- Would it be interesting for this forum?

B- Would it be better placed in the english Wikipedia?

Proposed Lemma title "Genealogy of Steinway & Sons Grands" ...

I'd translate the other big part only if there is interest here, and if I'd find a cooperating person who then honestly checks my english "piano language".... ;-)

= = = =

1853
Company founded, some workshops until 1860 in the south of Manhattan

1856
First pair of (concert) grands, straight strung, 85 keys #791 and 792

1858
First overstrung grand #2207

1859
First parlor grand #2485 (grand in the length class ca. 220cm)

1860
Opening of the new big manufactory in the north of Manhattan, 52. Street south of Central Park. The site will be sold 1909.

1863
First concert grand with 88 keys #7894

1864
Last straight-strung grand #9214

1865
Last concert grand with 85 keys

1869
First parlor grand with pinblock covered, test/experimental version #19.434
December Patent for the playing mechanism with soldered brass tubes filled by wooden sticks

1870
„Monitor Grand“ #25.006, first „cupola“ plate, precedessor of the B

1872
First grands with compression bar at the bass section of the soundboard, adjustable by screws

1873
March start of the Rikers casting plant as one of the first Astoria/Rikers workshops. Initially the key sets and the cast plates come from Queens/Rikers to Manhattan by „Steinway ferry“. Rikers plant is still the S&S manufactory in NYC.

1875
Sostenuto US patent
First grand with pilote screws #32.227, since #33.219 all grands with pilote screws
First and second Centennial D #33.449 and #33.610 (acc. to William Steinway diary Dec 25, 1875)

1877
Parlor Grand (C precedessor) with Cupola (covered pinblock) #35.340

1878
Start of „lettering“ A to D for the size classification oft h grands.
First A and B #37.879 and #37.905 with cupola, but still with sectional case (no rim made of woodden sheets)
Last „smaller“ concert grand 257 cm (type without Capo d’Astro, with open pinblock) #38.186
First C (Parlor Grand) with Capo d’Astro (instead of agraffes) #38.675, yet with sectional case
Last Monitor Grand (B precedessor) #38.890
November first B with rim #39.692 and #39.775

1879
Last Parlor Grand C (prec.) with open pinblock #38.532 and #38.554
After these grands all S&S grands only in version with pinblock covered by cast plate
Last B grands with sectional case #38.987 and #39.003
After September all grands with regulating screws at the unachorda moving

1880
First Centennial D with Rim #43.644
First C with Rim #43.791
October start of the Hamburg plant in Hamburg Altona, Schanzenstrasse
First B grand (building set) sent to Hamburg (HH) #42.877

1881
Continuous written reports in the casting shop
(Start of first writings was 1876, see Centennial plates)
Last C with sectional cases #42.741 and #42.755
Last Centennial D with sectional cases #43.351 and #43.372

1883
C with new plate design#47.631
A with new plate design#49.461
B with new plate design#49.262

1884
Last Centennial D #50.735 and #50.961
First D grand of actual design #51.257
First C in length 222cm #49.053 and #49.054 – still 85 keys

1885
First B with Double Cupola #52.807
Introduction of metallic lyra foot plate “antifriction trapwork”

1886
Last C- grands with 85 keys #54.358 and #56.306
First C-227 of actual designs with 88 keys, 20 bass keys #58.952 (sent as building set to HH)
(shortened D design, last technical development work of Theodor Steinway who retracted to private life in Germany


Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: BerndAB] #2744491
06/14/18 06:17 PM
06/14/18 06:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 722
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
500 Post Club Member
NobleHouse  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 722
In the Ozarks of Missouri
I think it is interesting. And I would post it here and Wikipedia.

Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: BerndAB] #2744523
06/14/18 08:19 PM
06/14/18 08:19 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,719
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,719
New York City
Although I don't remember the name, I think there was an entire book published in the last 10 years, that has all the historical and technical information about Steinway pianos.

Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: BerndAB] #2744524
06/14/18 08:27 PM
06/14/18 08:27 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,719
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,719
New York City

This is the book I was talking about in my previous post:
https://www.amazon.com/Official-Gui...mp;psc=1&refRID=VNC2T7SSA0M88HYYS0Y0

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: pianoloverus] #2744527
06/14/18 08:49 PM
06/14/18 08:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,376
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,376
Oakland
Yes, BerndAB referred to it as the "bible" of Roy Kehl.


Semipro Tech
Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: BerndAB] #2744530
06/14/18 09:09 PM
06/14/18 09:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 997
H
huaidongxi Offline
500 Post Club Member
huaidongxi  Offline
500 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 997
acc. to wikipedia, the Hamburg factory est. 1880 was a separate business owned solely by C.F. Theodor Steinway and Wm. Steinway. it also notes C.F. Theodor Steinway's patent on the rim bending block in 1880, the means by which most modern grands make their rims since.

Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: huaidongxi] #2744608
06/15/18 03:12 AM
06/15/18 03:12 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,043
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Online content
Platinum Subscriber
Rich Galassini  Online Content
Platinum Subscriber
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,043
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted by huaidongxi
acc. to wikipedia, the Hamburg factory est. 1880 was a separate business owned solely by C.F. Theodor Steinway and Wm. Steinway. it also notes C.F. Theodor Steinway's patent on the rim bending block in 1880, the means by which most modern grands make their rims since.


Although the "bent rim" was patented in 1880, for several years they manufactured concert grands with solid beams while they manufactured bent rim cases. They were not 100% sold on the idea yet.

The "bent rim" was a huge cost savings.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Subscribe to our YouTube channel for great content every week:
https://www.youtube.com/user/CunninghamPiano
Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: BDB] #2744626
06/15/18 06:23 AM
06/15/18 06:23 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,719
New York City
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,719
New York City
Originally Posted by BDB
Yes, BerndAB referred to it as the "bible" of Roy Kehl.
So it would seem that there already exists a book with all the technical and historical information about Steinway. So what is the purpose of the OP's project?

Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: pianoloverus] #2744642
06/15/18 09:02 AM
06/15/18 09:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 435
Montreal
P
pyropaul Offline
Full Member
pyropaul  Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 435
Montreal
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by BDB
Yes, BerndAB referred to it as the "bible" of Roy Kehl.
So it would seem that there already exists a book with all the technical and historical information about Steinway. So what is the purpose of the OP's project?


As he said "Main source but not alone is the "bible" of Roy Kehl, some infos from Lieberman, Fostle, Goldenberg etc."

So it's a compilation of several sources - this is always a worthy thing to do.

Paul.

Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: BerndAB] #2744657
06/15/18 10:41 AM
06/15/18 10:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 613
Germany
B
BerndAB Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
BerndAB  Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 613
Germany
Interesting discussion.

I seem to have solved the german-Wikipedia "violation of copyright" assumption as I could declare myself by written letter to Wikimedia.DE as main author of this compilation (right Sir)..., <pheeew>

Now you can see the whole stuff in german, added by a foreword and history, and in the discussion part threre is also a "how-to-use"... which is also problematic in the WP. So it is still in the discussion only.

It ist still on the "deletion heck devils' list" ... but will most probably disappear from these eargerly striving (-to-delete) guys. .. :-p


Still no guy to offer help for my bad "piano english"... ? ;-)


Do I be allowed to give any of you my lousy english version-to-be-fabricated-yet? ;-) Any other struggling with me deliberately?


https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogie_der_Steinway-Fl%C3%BCgel

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Genealogie_der_Steinway-Fl%C3%BCgel


Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain
Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: BerndAB] #2744660
06/15/18 10:52 AM
06/15/18 10:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 435
Montreal
P
pyropaul Offline
Full Member
pyropaul  Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 435
Montreal
I'll be happy to help!

Paul.

Re: Properties and genealogy of Steinway grands [Re: pianoloverus] #2744661
06/15/18 10:55 AM
06/15/18 10:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 613
Germany
B
BerndAB Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
BerndAB  Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 613
Germany
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by BDB
Yes, BerndAB referred to it as the "bible" of Roy Kehl.
So it would seem that there already exists a book with all the technical and historical information about Steinway. So what is the purpose of the OP's project?

PLOV, purpose is to put the technical details in a context with written explanantion what happened why, who did what et cetera, as the technical developent is intensively woven with four or five men being the technical geniusses, and with the six or so men being the presidents or owners of the Steinway comp. in the respective eras.

You are right, PLOV, if you bought the book of Roy Kehl and have read also the immense list of New York City manufactory, containing stuff about the grands, the squares and the uprights also, and know something about the connections to several other manufactories (Brunswick Grotrian, Nancy Mangeot, London 1875..., Hamburg 1880, Steinert Boston...) the Steinway bros. were dealing with.., then you won't need such an article.

I am an engineer. Throughout my whole "technical" life I always intensively took profit when one explaind such circumstances, besides of the pure facts. So I adopted a behaviour to explain, to make knowledge clear to others. This partly has to do with my family also, as my dad was a technical genius but did not like to deliver explanations.

But you are allowed to name this article "useless" or "copyright violation" as it is a compilation of some books (like a lot of written books are) or whatver you want. ;-) Just only look at some four or six Steinway books..., if you know them all, you won't need this article, or could have wirtten such an article by yourself.

;-) Dont worry be happy.

Best,
Bernd A. B.


Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Check Out Our Newsletter!
Our August 2018 Free Newsletter for Piano Enthusiasts is here now, check it out!
Piano World Newsletter
(ad)
Jazz Piano Lessons
Jazz Piano Lessons
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Dampp-Chaser system & Dawson String Covers
by mypianos4evr. 08/19/18 07:56 PM
Considering a Hamburg Steinway B
by James Guo. 08/19/18 06:47 PM
Thunderbolts and Lightning, Very Very Frightning
by MacMacMac. 08/19/18 02:58 PM
jazz as dance music
by iamanders. 08/19/18 02:04 PM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Pianoforall
PianoForAll
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics186,962
Posts2,739,933
Members90,801
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1