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used Seiler or new Kawai #2744291
06/14/18 02:07 AM
06/14/18 02:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
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ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Hi everyone!
I have been looking for a better piano for my daughter who is at level 1, she has been learning on an entry level Kawai digital piano. So far, I have checked out new Yamaha U1 and Kawai K300, they are around $10k, I think they are good and decent. Recently I went to a piano store to check out some used Kawai, Yamaha U1 and U3, mostly 30-40 yr old, they are priced from 5k-8k depending on the model, age and conditions. The salesman was very patient, he spent around 45 minutes playing some music on those models and explained the differences between them to me. I was at my lunch time and had to rush back to work, before i left the room I walked by a piano, it is tall and boxy, light brown maybe walnut in color, nothing spcial about that piano, despite its unattractive look somehow I asked the salesman what the piano was. He said it is a good brand called Seiler, 52 inch tall, there was a plate on the piano said Ed Seiler Kitzingen, the piano was made in Germany in 1985. I had never heard of the name and wasn't very interested but he offered to play a music so I decided to stay for a bit. When he played the first note, honestly I was stunned on the spot. I am not a piano expert, but that was the first time I felt piano voice went into my heart, and i had goose bumps. I did not know how to describe the tone but I remember the salesman said the tone is richer or bigger, fuller or broader than Yamaha's. I have heard a couple grand pianos from my daughter's teachers, they have beautiful tones but they don't strike me like that mediocre looking piano! I know right away this is the piano I want to buy but..this is for my daughter, I showed the picture to my family they were not very excited about it. It doesn't have a shinny finish like the regular piano, it looks like an old cabinet. It is not cheap too, priced at 8k negotiable, it comes with 10 yr warranty. Any broken strings, hammers or sticky keys will be fixed by them.
I really need some advice here...because for two thousand dollars more I can get a brand new shinny Kawai K-300, new design new materials and it will look good in my living room. Is this price range for an used Seiler reasonable and would it be a better piano for my daughter educationally in a long run? I am worried of repairs but it comes with 10 yr warranty. I got home and read about Seiler, but there is no information about this Piano or older Seiler pianos at all on the internet, I really need to convince myself and my family the reasons this old school piano worth to be part of my family life for the next 10-20 yrs.
I really hope that someone here can shed some light and my family would be very grateful!! Thank you so much!

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Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744292
06/14/18 02:20 AM
06/14/18 02:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 344
South Wales
C
Colin Miles Offline
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Colin Miles  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2017
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South Wales
This may help you
Seiler Pianos


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744304
06/14/18 03:53 AM
06/14/18 03:53 AM
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 997
H
huaidongxi Offline
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 997
an Ed Seiler of that size and age, in comparable condition to a yamaha of similar age, would usually be valued higher than the yamaha, which is how the dealer has priced them, by your description. from your text it it's hard for me to tell if your disappointment in the appearance of the German instrument is due to its overall condition, or a matter of taste. as far as your own preferences with how the piano sounds, if you enjoy piano music, you do not have to be an expert player to know what pleases you.

when we were looking for a used upright a bit more than a year ago, at about the same budget range you're describing now for your own needs, we ended up with a restored old piano with a victorian, decorative carved art case, and the exterior was not a major factor at all in the decision (old tall uprights have thick, massive profiles, whether carved cases or plain). used japanese uprights around the price we paid have a more neutral, bland tone characteristic, for my personal preferences, and this might be similar to your impression.

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744305
06/14/18 04:03 AM
06/14/18 04:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 136
Norway
S
Skjalg Offline

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Skjalg  Offline

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Posts: 136
Norway
A Seiler from that period is normally an excellent piano, depending on use of course. Colin Miles' video referral says it all. Since it was a tone that spoke to you, you might want to lookout for other instruments of the same model for comparison. The price seems a bit high to me, but then again I do not know the American market that well. I can get it for a 10th of that price in the private market here, and maybe if fully restored, for about the price you were given. If it just came by the store as a trade in, and only regulated, it would be around $ 2000-4000, depending on condition.


Last edited by Skjalg; 06/14/18 04:09 AM.
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Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744313
06/14/18 05:24 AM
06/14/18 05:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 260
Phoenix, AZ
agraffe Offline
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agraffe  Offline
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Phoenix, AZ
Can you take your daughter to the piano shop, to discover whether the Seiler speaks to her, too?
You can always drape a shawl over it, once home.

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744322
06/14/18 06:42 AM
06/14/18 06:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 18
Czech Republic
M
Marcel M Offline
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Marcel M  Offline
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Czech Republic
I can imagine that this can be a problem in modern design flat.
Maybe something like this can help:
piano-vinyl-wrapping


Kawai CA48
Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744399
06/14/18 12:44 PM
06/14/18 12:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,172
Toronto, Ontario
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Peter K. Mose Offline
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Peter K. Mose  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,172
Toronto, Ontario
Welcome, Ellie. I'd say you suddenly entered a higher, more refined, level of piano sound and piano building when you heard that German Seiler upright. The same experience happened to me in the 1980s when I was shopping for a grand piano. I've owned my Seiler 7-foot grand ever since. Two of my piano students - each also a violin player, interestingly, and attuned to sound quality - own large Seilers uprights, and both are wonderful pianos.

Absolutely this used piano should be a contender for your purchase. You might hire a piano technician to have a look at it, or you might ask a musical friend to play it and give you some feedback, but I think your instincts are just fine. The price sounds reasonable (I assume you are in the US, and quoting in US dollars), though it's hard to compare since there are so few Seilers in N. America. It sounds like it has a satin finish, not a high-gloss finish. That's just personal taste; many of us love a satin finish.

Would this piano be better educationally for your daughter than a Yamaha or Kawai, you ask. No, that I would not say. Yamaha and Kawai make fine pianos.

If I were your piano consultant, I'd say try playing a few other used European-made uprights, even if this means you don't purchase a piano for another few months. If that's too complicated, then buy the Seiler tomorrow and be proud of your decision. You could probably sell it to me or one of my students in a year or two if you have second thoughts!

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: Colin Miles] #2744419
06/14/18 01:50 PM
06/14/18 01:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
E
ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2018
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At first glance I thought it was the same piano!
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
This may help you
Seiler Pianos


Wow at first glance I thought it was the same piano! Then I noticed the music rack in the video is longer, I will go back to the store for another look and listen.
Thanks for the link!

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: huaidongxi] #2744421
06/14/18 02:01 PM
06/14/18 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
E
ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by huaidongxi
an Ed Seiler of that size and age, in comparable condition to a yamaha of similar age, would usually be valued higher than the yamaha, which is how the dealer has priced them, by your description. from your text it it's hard for me to tell if your disappointment in the appearance of the German instrument is due to its overall condition, or a matter of taste.
.

Thanks for sharing your experience with me! and yeah its just a matter of taste, personal preference. There are a couple chips on the wood but overall the piano is fine. I will take my family to check out the piano.

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744424
06/14/18 02:10 PM
06/14/18 02:10 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
E
ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Posts: 12
Originally Posted by Skjalg
A Seiler from that period is normally an excellent piano, depending on use of course. Colin Miles' video referral says it all. Since it was a tone that spoke to you, you might want to lookout for other instruments of the same model for comparison. The price seems a bit high to me, but then again I do not know the American market that well. I can get it for a 10th of that price in the private market here, and maybe if fully restored, for about the price you were given. If it just came by the store as a trade in, and only regulated, it would be around $ 2000-4000, depending on condition.


Wow, I wish they have the same price here!!!

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744432
06/14/18 02:50 PM
06/14/18 02:50 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,536
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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terminaldegree  Offline
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Posts: 4,536
Georgia, USA
You could always try and negotiate a little. Tall vertical pianos aren’t a hot commodity in most US markets.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744440
06/14/18 03:15 PM
06/14/18 03:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4
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GuyNC Offline
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GuyNC  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4
Originally Posted by ellie_musical
Hi everyone!
I have been looking for a better piano for my daughter who is at level 1, she has been learning on an entry level Kawai digital piano. So far, I have checked out new Yamaha U1 and Kawai K300, they are around $10k, I think they are good and decent.


Are you in the US? You ought to be be able to get a K300 for a lot less than that. I recently paid less than that for a new K500.

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744462
06/14/18 04:49 PM
06/14/18 04:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
E
ellie_musical Offline OP
Junior Member
ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2018
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Originally Posted by agraffe
Can you take your daughter to the piano shop, to discover whether the Seiler speaks to her, too?
You can always drape a shawl over it, once home.

I have never thought of this, thanks for the suggestion! and Yeah I am taking them to the shop soon!

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744465
06/14/18 04:56 PM
06/14/18 04:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
E
ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2018
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Originally Posted by Marcel M
I can imagine that this can be a problem in modern design flat.
Maybe something like this can help:
piano-vinyl-wrapping

Thats pretty cool, I have never seen this kind of service here.

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2744474
06/14/18 05:18 PM
06/14/18 05:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
E
ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
Welcome, Ellie. I'd say you suddenly entered a higher, more refined, level of piano sound and piano building when you heard that German Seiler upright. The same experience happened to me in the 1980s when I was shopping for a grand piano. I've owned my Seiler 7-foot grand ever since. Two of my piano students - each also a violin player, interestingly, and attuned to sound quality - own large Seilers uprights, and both are wonderful pianos.

Absolutely this used piano should be a contender for your purchase. You might hire a piano technician to have a look at it, or you might ask a musical friend to play it and give you some feedback, but I think your instincts are just fine. The price sounds reasonable (I assume you are in the US, and quoting in US dollars), though it's hard to compare since there are so few Seilers in N. America. It sounds like it has a satin finish, not a high-gloss finish. That's just personal taste; many of us love a satin finish.

Would this piano be better educationally for your daughter than a Yamaha or Kawai, you ask. No, that I would not say. Yamaha and Kawai make fine pianos.

If I were your piano consultant, I'd say try playing a few other used European-made uprights, even if this means you don't purchase a piano for another few months. If that's too complicated, then buy the Seiler tomorrow and be proud of your decision. You could probably sell it to me or one of my students in a year or two if you have second thoughts!


Hi Peter, thanks for sharing your experience. My name is Sin actually, Ellie is my daughter's name, we are from British columbia. I haven't seen many used European made upright pianos here, maybe I haven't tried hard enough but I don't have much spare time to go around the town. From the replied posts, it looks like the piano price here is much higher than in the US. Nice to have a grand piano really, I have come across a couple Kawai GM10 and 12 within this price range, but we are not ready to sacrifice the living room for it at this time. I will take my family to the shop again on the weekend, hopefully my instinct was right and I will feel the same on that piano, and hopefully they will like the piano too. Cheers!

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744478
06/14/18 05:27 PM
06/14/18 05:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
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ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by GuyNC
Originally Posted by ellie_musical
Hi everyone!
I have been looking for a better piano for my daughter who is at level 1, she has been learning on an entry level Kawai digital piano. So far, I have checked out new Yamaha U1 and Kawai K300, they are around $10k, I think they are good and decent.


Are you in the US? You ought to be be able to get a K300 for a lot less than that. I recently paid less than that for a new K500.

No I am from Canada, looks like we have to pay more here. frown

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744598
06/15/18 01:56 AM
06/15/18 01:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,172
Toronto, Ontario
P
Peter K. Mose Offline
2000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,172
Toronto, Ontario
Sin, I'm a bit confused whether you are quoting in CDN$ or US$. If the Seiler is going for $8000CDN, that's clearly a better deal than when I was guessing you meant $8000US.

But yes, pianos are generally more expensive in Canada than in the US.

Last edited by Peter K. Mose; 06/15/18 01:58 AM.
Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2744601
06/15/18 02:11 AM
06/15/18 02:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
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ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
Sin, I'm a bit confused whether you are quoting in CDN$ or US$. If the Seiler is going for $8000CDN, that's clearly a better deal than when I was guessing you meant $8000US.

But yes, pianos are generally more expensive in Canada than in the US.


It's Canadian, but I feel it's expensive still. Haha.

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: terminaldegree] #2744605
06/15/18 03:04 AM
06/15/18 03:04 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 11,034
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Rich Galassini Offline
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Rich Galassini  Offline
Platinum Subscriber
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Posts: 11,034
Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
You could always try and negotiate a little. Tall vertical pianos aren’t a hot commodity in most US markets.


I beg to differ on this. Our acoustic upright sales have been skewing towards the higher uprights over the past 5 to 10 years.

In fact, in 2005 we sold almost an even number of studio to console pianos. Today we sell 2.7 times more studio pianos than we do consoles. I am including all used piano sales as well. We also sell 4 times as many uprights 48" or taller than we did in 2005.

I do not know if this is a typical change or if we are an anomaly, but I suspect this is part of a larger shift.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
(215) 991-0834 direct line
rich@cunninghampiano.com
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Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744647
06/15/18 09:20 AM
06/15/18 09:20 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,536
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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terminaldegree  Offline
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Georgia, USA
Hi Rich,

If this is the case on a large scale, I’m happy to hear it.
In the case of your shop, I’m assuming sales of the Cunningham upright have a lot to do with why the numbers look like they do. Am I wrong?


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2744648
06/15/18 09:23 AM
06/15/18 09:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,172
Toronto, Ontario
P
Peter K. Mose Offline
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Peter K. Mose  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,172
Toronto, Ontario
Rich, a wonderful report from the front - delighted to hear it! My guess is that digital pianos have crowded out consoles. Could that make sense?

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2745414
06/18/18 06:26 PM
06/18/18 06:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
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ellie_musical Offline OP
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ellie_musical  Offline OP
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Thanks everyone for giving me tips and helps, I took my family to check out that used 1986 Seiler piano, the previous owner was a German and he brought the piano over when he moved to Vancouver, I also saw that there is a dehumidifier inside the piano, it is not working anymore and will be removed. It seems like the piano has been well taken care of.

I was right about the sound, my wife and daughter like the sound a lot too, I actually don't mind the look anymore, I feel the satin finish looks natural to me now, haha. And also my 7 yr old daughter said she preferred the Seiler's piano keys than the U1.

And what a small world, when we were chatting in the store, we found out that the salesman's piano teacher was my daughter's current piano teacher! He learnt from the same piano teacher family 15-20 years ago. My daughter just started with this new teacher about a month ago, and her teacher mentioned she was going to ask someone to look for a suitable piano for my daughter and that was him! So besides we trust our instinct, we also believe in the salesman, a very humble person and from what I can see, a very talented pianist himself, and of course, we also got a good deal!

The piano will be delivered sometimes this week so we are all very excited! Thanks again all!

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2745426
06/18/18 07:00 PM
06/18/18 07:00 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 3,330
Florida
dogperson Offline
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Woo hoo!!! Warmest congrats on the new piano. I am so glad your daughter was happy with it as you are


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: ellie_musical] #2745431
06/18/18 07:13 PM
06/18/18 07:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,172
Toronto, Ontario
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Peter K. Mose Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
Welcome to the Seiler fraternity, Sin. There's a secret handshake, of course, and a yearly N. American reunion in Banff. It's usually just eight of us, but with your family we will boost our numbers this summer.

Re: used Seiler or new Kawai [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2745713
06/19/18 06:34 PM
06/19/18 06:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 12
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ellie_musical Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
Welcome to the Seiler fraternity, Sin. There's a secret handshake, of course, and a yearly N. American reunion in Banff. It's usually just eight of us, but with your family we will boost our numbers this summer.

Wow, how long have you guys been doing that? Maybe my family can join in the future!
It would be a huge 37.5% increment in numbers!


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