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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Grazilerimba] #2744355
06/14/18 09:54 AM
06/14/18 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
Anyway, IMHO they should just focus on getting the core piano sound improved. What's the point in releasing instrument upon instrment when the basic sound still has a lot of improvement ahead until it can actually pass as a replacement for a recording?

Because a company survives by selling things it can actually produce. You assume that if they put the same man hours into only improving the basic sound, the basic sound would be better, but there's no reason to assume that. For example, they could have some people working on new piano models (which actually bring in new revenue, which is essential) while others work on the underlying engine. (And these could even be different people with different skill sets, such that there would be no real benefit to having the programmers for one project work on the other.) Even if the same people are doing it all, they need revenue streams, and there are many willing buyers for their new piano models. Another possibility is that they may be at about the limit of what they know how to do with the engine, absent some lightbulb moment that cannot be predicted or anticipated. Or as QUF alluded to, maybe their ideas for how to improve would require hardware beyond that of most of their potential customer base. You can't assume that just throwing more resources at something will get you what you're after, nor that resources assigned to project A are necessarily taking resources away from project B. Especially when sales of project A may be helping to finance project B.

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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744358
06/14/18 10:22 AM
06/14/18 10:22 AM
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Austria, EU
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I am very picky on piano sound, but I have no gripes with the sound quality of Pianoteq at all.
Another story is the audio interface processing the output by Pianoteq. Only once I had bad sound caused by a poorly configured, cheap audio chip inside an old Thinkpad laptop.
@QuasiUnaFantasia ,
did you actually test Pianoteq with a good audio interface?

Re> simplifiactions:
IMO one of the special skills of the company Pianoteq is, the reduction of the calculation requirements to a minimum, while maintaining the quality of the piano sound.
Imaginge the support nightmare you would face as a company, selling software with very special hardware requirements to the end customer PC market. Commercially, that would only make sense, if the specialized hardware would be offered in a bundle together with the software.
E.g. I could imagine
- a special MacPro Edition or
- a Chord Electronics HUGO 3 with a Pianoteq Platinum version running natively on it ... accompanied with a very exclusive price tag wink




Last edited by lophiomys; 06/14/18 10:22 AM. Reason: typo1
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2744359
06/14/18 10:25 AM
06/14/18 10:25 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
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Northern England.
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
There is an additional thing to consider. It is in principle always possible to increase the sound quality of a modelled piano by increasing the number of calculations involved. This, however, makes greater hardware demands. Since the very low demand on hardware is a selling point for Pianoteq, they most likely do not wish to sacrifice that, merely to bring out better sound quality.

Instead they likely want to wait until their customers have upgraded their hardware, and then unleash the higher quality sound.


A YT comparison with other more demanding VSTs doesn't necessarily produce a better or more authentic sound from these. Even if it did, would more folk buy it in preference to these others? Maybe many just like PT as it is, like me. A sort of half way house between a good digital and a good acoustic. The best of both, and the worst of neither. AND you can easily discern the difference between the different models offered.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744368
06/14/18 11:00 AM
06/14/18 11:00 AM
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Hi,
those are all great points, didn't consider these things. Thank you for taking the time to write that. Yeah I was under the impression that you can just focus the time and effort you invest into new instruments and put that into improving the algorithm instead. Doesn't seem to be that simple. Perhaps, as time goes by, they'll raise the system requirements and allow for more calculations? "Does it run Pianoteq" will become the new "Does it run Crysis".

I would think that Modartt is already pretty well off as far as their competitive situation goes because their software is among the few piano VSTs that has managed to fend off piracy relatively well, leading to increased sales.

Well, if the market analysis goes like that, and if they are trying to get a good head start ahead of their competition, then I can just hope that the competition will become stronger so we'll get the better product as soon as possioble :p While the PianoV2 feels like a solid piece of software as far as I could see in the demo, Pianoteq still has a more refined sound. Will be interesting to see how this delevops!

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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2744374
06/14/18 11:28 AM
06/14/18 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
There is an additional thing to consider. It is in principle always possible to increase the sound quality of a modelled piano by increasing the number of calculations involved. This, however, makes greater hardware demands. Since the very low demand on hardware is a selling point for Pianoteq, they most likely do not wish to sacrifice that, merely to bring out better sound quality.

Instead they likely want to wait until their customers have upgraded their hardware, and then unleash the higher quality sound.


I am not sure it is the problem.
As you probably know, every Pianoteq instrument is a pre compiled core. Pianoteq just allows the user to modifie some parameters, but we have no access to the model itself. Once this core model is compiled, the extra calculations remains low.
For comparison, I would say it is something like the "freeze" function on your DAW. You can freeze and play 50 tracks at the same time, the power demand will be very low

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744377
06/14/18 11:47 AM
06/14/18 11:47 AM
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I haven't been a huge fan of Pianoteq at all. But the Steingraeber in that video really sounds great!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744387
06/14/18 12:11 PM
06/14/18 12:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,754
Orange County, California
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I tried the demo sample. I think this is the first Pianoteq sample that sounded loud and close. The others always sound far away and soft, but it could be that I need to tweak the microphone placement on those, or use a better soundcard/interface.


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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744389
06/14/18 12:16 PM
06/14/18 12:16 PM
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Vancouver, BC
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Just moved from 6.1 to 6.2 and I think there's a definite sonic improvement. To my tired ears previous versions exhibited something that sounded like IM distortion in the higher registers when multiple notes were played--particularly with the sustain pedal down. This now seems much reduced, with all my previous settings left unchanged.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: karvala] #2744407
06/14/18 01:16 PM
06/14/18 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,714
Suffolk, United Kingdom
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EssBrace Offline
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Originally Posted by karvala
I don't really get it. I tried it, it was okay, but very similar to the Grotrian. The tone is slightly more focused and less flabby than the Steinway D, for example, and maybe that's what people like? Honestly, though, to me it sounds like a small incremental change at best, and I'm not sure I even prefer over the other Pianoteq instruments.

What am I missing? This is all through headphones; are you guys using speakers/monitors? Are you adjusting the settings in some way? I'm genuinely curious.


I use headphones. But I don't think that is helping or hindering.

I agree with you entirely. I don't feel it's some kind of leap forward. More of the same to my ears. Not bad. Very playable. But there's still this odd resonant ringing accompanying everything, all the time. It's not nice to my ears. And, like all modelled sounds, if you really smack it in the bass area it's just metallic clanking. Individual notes have that sine wave type of feel.

I occasionally play PT and always use the Grotrian Prelude patch. It's okay - great dynamics. Nice for a change for half an hour. Then I return to a sampled sound and everything falls back into place for me, sonically speaking.

I congratulate PT however on their policy of continuing development. It is edging forward with each update.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: karvala] #2744412
06/14/18 01:25 PM
06/14/18 01:25 PM
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Grazilerimba Online content
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Originally Posted by karvala
Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
I'll definitely download the update and check out the new instrument demo. I gotta give it to them that they're pretty much the only VST developer who allows you to actually demo their instrument in a meaningful way, along with Arturia and their PianoV2. (I think some other developer offered you like a single octave as a demo or something? lol)


VSL let you demo theirs as well for 30 days without restriction if you have bought a Vienna Key (for €24). Not sure about their policy if you already have an elicencer key; it's possible they'll let you demo for free then, but I don't know if that's the case. Without an elicence key, you can also access buy a short demo of all their products for €18. So possibly not free, which is unfortunate, but definitely meaningful.


Totally missed this post. I didn't know that VSL allows for a demo, that's really nice considering their harsh DRM stuff. The paid demo is also acceptable to me, in the same way as they also offer a hard drive including all the downloadable files, so you don't have to download anything, but it costs you somewhere around 100 dollars or something. I should check out Try Sound, although I hear bad things about its latency in this forum.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744414
06/14/18 01:38 PM
06/14/18 01:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 80
Hamburg, Germany
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Holger Stief Offline
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Hamburg, Germany
Great to see the Steingraeber model is now released!

I have actually been waiting for this for some time, because at the beginning of this year Steingraeber themselves posted about the existence of the physical model from Modartt, since they used it for their new Transducer grand pianos:
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/2018/01/12/musikmesse-frankfurt-steingraeber-exhibits/
https://www.steingraeber.de/en/innovationen/transducer/

Therefore it was rather likely that Modartt would eventually release the model as an instrument pack for PianoTeq as well.

So far I only listened to the demos and the Phil Best video, but I feel that they definitely managed to capture quite a lot of the typical Steingraeber sound characteristics with this model.
Overall I already found PianoTeq 6.0 to be much more enjoyable than previous versions, though over a longer period it still came just a bit short of winning me over from my tried and true sample libraries. Now, with the Steingraeber instrument pack of course it becomes quite tempting to get a "matching model" to my real Steingraeber grand for quiet practice, so I am eager to give the new 6.2 trial version a thorough test!

Last edited by Holger Stief; 06/14/18 01:39 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744423
06/14/18 02:05 PM
06/14/18 02:05 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,755
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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For fun, if you’d like to compare, here’s our Piano Buyer review (including video footage with good quality audio) of the acoustic Steingraeber:

https://www.pianobuyer.com/Articles/Detail/ArticleId/32/Review-Steingraeber-Sohne-1

Maybe we should ask Hugh to review the Pianoteq version...


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744438
06/14/18 03:13 PM
06/14/18 03:13 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 148
Denmark
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@lophiomys : I use Pianoteq on my not very expensive laptop, so I would think the audio interface my ears are used to is nothing special.

@peterws : I agree entirely; using more CPU does not imply better sound. My point is simply that any model trying to reproduce physical reality is necessarily an approximation, and by increasing the complexity of the model (as long as you know what you are doing), you may approximate reality further. But this comes at the cost of higher CPU demand.

@stamkorg : I think we may be missing each others point. I'm merely referring to the possibility of delaying adding complexity to the model, with the higher demands this would involve, until such a time when the customers are ready for it. But it may well be that this is not at all relevant in this specific case; Modartt might for example not even have a clear plan for how to increase the model complexity in a meaningful way.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28, Pianoteq 6.4 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744442
06/14/18 03:38 PM
06/14/18 03:38 PM
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Posts: 347
Greater Chicago Metro Area
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I personally think Modartt have come a long way since version 4. At version 4 I thought it finally is not so metallic sounding. In version 5 better still and now in version 6 a lot better to my ears. And that is the kicker -MY EARS-

Everyone has to decide for him/her self if the sound is right. Just like some don't like the sound of Roland modeled pianos too. For me the sound keeps getting better and better. So I choose to support Pianoteq by buying the software and updating to version 6. What I really like about the software is the play ability. The software just seems alive to me.

Also nice to see some competition with Arturia Piano V2.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraber E-272 [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2744443
06/14/18 03:40 PM
06/14/18 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
My point is simply that any model trying to reproduce physical reality is necessarily an approximation, and by increasing the complexity of the model (as long as you know what you are doing), you may approximate reality further. But this comes at the cost of higher CPU demand.


Maybe, maybe not.
These things very rarely behave like a linear function of "increase complexity by X to gain improvement by a*X".

Right now, PTQ uses pathetic single digit CPU percentages, to the point that any half decent system basically twiddles it's thumbs while you play. They could use 10x that much and bring modern CPUs to 90%+ but you may not even get any difference you can hear.

@new model: I am not a fan. It sounds hollow/thin to my ears. Maybe it takes a pro to make it sing, I don't know.

Last edited by Granyala; 06/14/18 03:40 PM.

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Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Frédéric L] #2744451
06/14/18 04:16 PM
06/14/18 04:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 353
Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by ArtlessArt
Also: "Offer until 30 June: Buy the new Steingraeber E-272 instrument pack and get 50% discount on one additional instrument pack of your choice."


I was too hurry to buy mine, and didn’t see the discount.

No promotional code was sent to me : I should have buy two instruments in the same order.


I think if you don't activate it, you can recover your money, and make the purchase again.

Last edited by Marcos Daniel; 06/14/18 04:17 PM.

Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744459
06/14/18 04:34 PM
06/14/18 04:34 PM
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Bought this instrument for pianoteq and i think its the best from there repertoire. Best thing is it doesn't have this weird flickering noise what you get from the steinway or bluthner if you press an octave in the left hand on the lower end of the keyboard.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Marcos Daniel] #2744469
06/14/18 05:06 PM
06/14/18 05:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,931
France
Frédéric L Offline
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@Marcos Daniel : too late !

I have written them, but if I can’t have a 25€ cut, this would not matter too much.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744473
06/14/18 05:15 PM
06/14/18 05:15 PM
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Europe
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Did you purchase 2 instruments?
As far as I understand, you receive a 25e discount to purchase another instrument beside the Steingraeber.

Re: Pianoteq introduced a Steingraeber E-272 [Re: Tom Fort] #2744476
06/14/18 05:25 PM
06/14/18 05:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,931
France
Frédéric L Offline
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France
@mcoll : No, I have purchased Stringraeber alone... and it seems that both purchased has to be made in the same order.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 06/14/18 05:26 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
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