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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2743915
06/12/18 03:08 PM
06/12/18 03:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,196
Dublin
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johnstaf Offline
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Dublin
Sorry I made a silly mistake. On my piano, the hammer travels 45mm for 10mm key travel.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: johnstaf] #2743977
06/12/18 07:59 PM
06/12/18 07:59 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,809
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Kawai James  Offline
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Sorry I made a silly mistake. On my piano, the hammer travels 45mm for 10mm key travel.


Does this mean your post should have read:

Originally Posted by johnstaf
In the above post, the 4.5:1 ratio is that between key and hammer travel.


Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744025
06/13/18 12:30 AM
06/13/18 12:30 AM
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johnstaf Offline
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Yes James thank you. Although it’s probably closer to 5:1 when I take let off into account.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: johnstaf] #2744064
06/13/18 05:58 AM
06/13/18 05:58 AM
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Bambers Offline
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Just a few things to put pivot lengths in context.

I believe the pivot length of the Kawais is overstated. The key doesn’t pivot on the pin, but on the top of the balance rail (the shelf that the keys rest on) in a grand. In the GF, it looks to me like 23 cm or thereabouts, for the white keys, is probably a reasonable estimate.


It's 24.1cm. People have bothered to actually take the keys out and measure this in other threads on this forum, there are photos about.

And yes the actual pivot is the bottom edge of the key, but this would make it longer if anything as the you'd have to pythag the 24.1 with the key height. This is usually a minimal difference so everyone tends to gloss over it. At any rate, pha50 also pivots from the 'bottom' of the key.

Regarding folded etc, yes, strictly speaking, what happens the other side of the pivot is it's own thing. I've often wondered if it's perhaps the feel of the pin and felt bushings etc that is what people are actually picking up on.

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Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744084
06/13/18 08:30 AM
06/13/18 08:30 AM
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Dublin
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johnstaf Offline
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My point isn’t about the pivot being at the bottom, but that it’s closer than 24.1 cm. The bottom of the pin isn’t the pivot point. The pin keeps the key in place, but when depressed, the key pivots on the support underneath and moves up slightly (on the pin). The Steinway accelerated action makes use of this fact, by altering the balance rail to maximize the key leverage for the same key length (and pin position). David Stanwood has a design where the position of the key balance rail (and thus the pivot point) can be changed under the pin (using a lever) to change the feel of the action.

I’d imagine a key difference in the feel between the Kawai and Roland is that the latter has a lot of plastic contact points, whereas in the Kawai the wood and felt contact points are like on an acoustic.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: johnstaf] #2744104
06/13/18 10:04 AM
06/13/18 10:04 AM
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
My point isn’t about the pivot being at the bottom, but that it’s closer than 24.1 cm. The bottom of the pin isn’t the pivot point. The pin keeps the key in place, but when depressed, the key pivots on the support underneath and moves up slightly (on the pin). The Steinway accelerated action makes use of this fact, by altering the balance rail to maximize the key leverage for the same key length (and pin position). David Stanwood has a design where the position of the key balance rail (and thus the pivot point) can be changed under the pin (using a lever) to change the feel of the action.

I’d imagine a key difference in the feel between the Kawai and Roland is that the latter has a lot of plastic contact points, whereas in the Kawai the wood and felt contact points are like on an acoustic.


On the GF2 the distance from the balance pin to the actual pivot point is rather small. The 24.1 cm are not where the balance pin is but the approximate location of the felt under the key from where the key pivots. Pictures here, including the ones that Bambers referred to.

http://www.kawaius.com/digital/Features/actions.html
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...l-key-and-pivot-lengths.html#Post2688852

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744132
06/13/18 11:43 AM
06/13/18 11:43 AM
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johnstaf Offline
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Thanks for the link. I’ve already seen these. 24.1 is the distance to the pin. I agree that the distance to the pivot is close.

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2744202
06/13/18 05:48 PM
06/13/18 05:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 397
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Bambers Offline
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UK
I see what you mean about the bottom of the key essentially rolls a bit however I've not noticed that to be significant in acoustics, if anything the contact point is behind the pin slightly at rest as the keys are typically angled 'up' slightly at that point and moves infront of it when the key is depressed, however it never leaves the felt pad that the key actually sits on.

Steinways accelerated action strikes me as 90% marketing blab if I'm honest. If it was that superior, everyone would be using it by now and they don't (it's from the 30s (ish?), well out of any patent).

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: WarrenY] #2776243
10/28/18 05:45 PM
10/28/18 05:45 PM
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varignet Offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenY
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Does anyone have a compiled list of key lengths for pianos?


Glad that you asked. I dislike adjectives from people without real data, so I have been keeping a short list for myself from real measurements and from info gathered online.

Here you go. Pivot length and force ratio from fallboard+2cm (playing at back-of-key) to front-1cm (playing at front), assuming exposed white key is 15cm :

- Yamaha GHS, 17.25cm [3.82]
- Casio Privia, 18.75cm [3.08]
- Yamaha GH, GH3, GH3X, NW, NWX, 20cm [2.71]
- Kawai RHIII, 20cm [2.71]
- Roland PHA50, 22cm [2.33]
- Yamaha AvantGrand, 23.5cm [2.14]
- Kawai GF/GF2, 24.1cm [2.08]
- Kawai Millennium III, 26cm [1.92]

See how PHA50 is the longest folded action in the market. And, once you get close to a force ratio of 2, the difference becomes small and likely buried in key weight variations of different actions.

EDIT: I expect the pivot length of Yamaha's GrandTouch to be closer to PHA50 than GF2 but I don't know until someone takes apart a CLP675 or 685.


Amazing, thanks for sharing.
I saw posts about the RH3 being 20.5cm, also out of curiosity how did you work out the force ratio?
I've heard the vertical height of the pivot point would affect force ratio and the RH3 vertical pivot point was placed differently compared to other folded actions, sorry I lost my source.

Last edited by varignet; 10/28/18 05:46 PM.
Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: Osho] #2776273
10/28/18 07:02 PM
10/28/18 07:02 PM
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varignet Offline
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also I'd be curious to know the fatar tp40 pivot point, can't find that info online

Re: Roland LX-17 action [Re: varignet] #2776327
10/28/18 10:24 PM
10/28/18 10:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,809
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by varignet
I've heard the vertical height of the pivot point would affect force ratio and the RH3 vertical pivot point was placed differently compared to other folded actions, sorry I lost my source.


I'm not 100% sure this is accurate, but I've asked Peter to clarify his post, here.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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