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Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2738376
05/21/18 10:46 AM
05/21/18 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
... Last big hurdle was "Tommy Thumb" in Technique 3E where I kept missing the Bb for the key of F.... (by 'keep', I mean >50 times). Over two hours of practice before I could consistently play it all the way through without any mistakes. Whew.

I responded to your post in the Teacher forum about finding a teacher,and RCM (which I have experienced) but I don't think you've been back to see it. smile I just happened to see this post when I went to see what else you've written.
So - When I was a student first time round, one thing that I did not learn at all was how to practice, or toward what (part of the how). I started to figure out some of it near the end (a few years later!) and it was the start of a huge paradigm shift. Things I'd practise for months, came together in maybe 2 weeks, and in ways I really liked. I'm seeing signs of that here. You should not be in a position of missing a note multiple times, or practising it for several hours, as you described. So in case it helps:

Practising anything does not mean aiming for the end result as it would be in a performance: i.e. we play TT from beginning to end at the right tempo without mistakes. Instead, divide your piece into sections, and devise goals. Possibly, identify what is the hardest thing, and work on that first. A "goal" in this piece would definitely be that Bb. Before you do any of the piece, fixate on that Bb, both as notation (the note with the middle line running through it for the treble clef), and as piano key (the right-most in the group of 3 blacks). You could find everywhere in the piece where that Bb occurs. Play that note, and the note before it. You will never, ever miss it, and it will become engrained. However you divide up your work in sections, you might work on only 4 or 5 notes total in that section doing that, to begin with. Then....

... walk away from it. Trust that your body-mind-senses system will start absorbing this. You might come back to it later in the day, and go back to this same thing. We're talking 5-10 minutes - less effort for more returns. Meanwhile as you go through your daily business, you might flash the picture in front of you of that black piano key, and that middle line. ....... Over days, these things will become automatic. They start to form in your sleep and the next day you wonder where "that hard thing" went.

These are the kinds of things that I did not learn first time round, and they made me work much harder than I needed to, with disappointing results.

This also redefines "goals" (i.e. the RCM idea). Underneath the broad goals within the structure of something like the RCM, are the actual practice goals that will get you there. If you are practising a piece for "grade 1", or an etude, or a scale or chord, the actual way to get you there is the type of thing that I described.

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Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: keystring] #2738406
05/21/18 12:36 PM
05/21/18 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
... Last big hurdle was "Tommy Thumb" in Technique 3E where I kept missing the Bb for the key of F.... (by 'keep', I mean >50 times). Over two hours of practice before I could consistently play it all the way through without any mistakes. Whew.

I responded to your post in the Teacher forum about finding a teacher,and RCM (which I have experienced) but I don't think you've been back to see it. smile

Thanks! I did miss your very thoughtful response to my message on the Teacher's Forum, but I just went back and read it and responded there.

Originally Posted by keystring
I just happened to see this post when I went to see what else you've written.
So - When I was a student first time round, one thing that I did not learn at all was how to practice, or toward what (part of the how). I started to figure out some of it near the end (a few years later!) and it was the start of a huge paradigm shift. Things I'd practise for months, came together in maybe 2 weeks, and in ways I really liked. I'm seeing signs of that here. You should not be in a position of missing a note multiple times, or practising it for several hours, as you described. So in case it helps:

Practising anything does not mean aiming for the end result as it would be in a performance: i.e. we play TT from beginning to end at the right tempo without mistakes. Instead, divide your piece into sections, and devise goals. Possibly, identify what is the hardest thing, and work on that first. A "goal" in this piece would definitely be that Bb. Before you do any of the piece, fixate on that Bb, both as notation (the note with the middle line running through it for the treble clef), and as piano key (the right-most in the group of 3 blacks). You could find everywhere in the piece where that Bb occurs. Play that note, and the note before it. You will never, ever miss it, and it will become engrained. However you divide up your work in sections, you might work on only 4 or 5 notes total in that section doing that, to begin with. Then....

... walk away from it. Trust that your body-mind-senses system will start absorbing this. You might come back to it later in the day, and go back to this same thing. We're talking 5-10 minutes - less effort for more returns. Meanwhile as you go through your daily business, you might flash the picture in front of you of that black piano key, and that middle line. ....... Over days, these things will become automatic. They start to form in your sleep and the next day you wonder where "that hard thing" went.

Wow. What some great ideas! For example, with that Bb, I was really frustrated. I would say it out loud to myself. I would order myself not to miss the Bb next time. And I would be astounded and upset when indeed, the next time, I'd miss it again... and again... and again... My final success came after I invented a jingle I would mentally say as I played which would bring some attention to that Bb, not anything that made the Bb in key of F more natural for me. So I'm definitely going to be trying out your practice technique.

Originally Posted by keystring
These are the kinds of things that I did not learn first time round, and they made me work much harder than I needed to, with disappointing results.

This also redefines "goals" (i.e. the RCM idea). Underneath the broad goals within the structure of something like the RCM, are the actual practice goals that will get you there. If you are practising a piece for "grade 1", or an etude, or a scale or chord, the actual way to get you there is the type of thing that I described.

Thanks! I address your RCM comments in the other thread on the Piano Teacher's forum where you had commented in length.


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2738487
05/21/18 07:06 PM
05/21/18 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarah65
Congratulations on finishing Level 3. With me it will take a while because I have no free time, too much work in the garden.

But your work in your garden is your enjoyment, at least ultimately, no? In which case I am happy for you that one enjoyable thing is taking you from another.

Originally Posted by Sarah65
There is not much difference in method and technique, one is already duller than the other... I just do what I like, it doesn't have to be all necessary:) Btw, Find all C's is an exercise that they usually teach in the first lesson to beginners, what does that do in level 4?

Yes, that is also another point. In fact, I felt I had made so much progress finishing Level 3. Imagine my let down when the first exercise in Level 4 was to find the C's! frown


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2739618
05/26/18 11:54 AM
05/26/18 11:54 AM
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After the silence, music comes closest to the articulation of the unspeakable.
-Aldous Huxley-

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Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2739626
05/26/18 12:42 PM
05/26/18 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarah65
After the silence, music comes closest to the articulation of the unspeakable.
-Aldous Huxley-

This quote struck a chord with me. I just didn't know why. I googled for "unspeakable" to see if I had maybe seen this before. And then it struck me. Many many years ago when I was in college @ H*, I wrote a final paper for my English class called "Unspeakable versus Inexpressible". And in many ways, it was also about articulation of the unspeakable or the inexpressible. So a little déjà vu there!

And returning to the Piano Marvel topic, they released a new version of the plug-in this morning! They refer to it as 2.0 (oooooh). However the plug-in itself says 0.0.1.14. There apparently are some new features. Can't wait to try and see if they fixed some of the bugs I'd previously found!


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2739644
05/26/18 01:38 PM
05/26/18 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone

And returning to the Piano Marvel topic, they released a new version of the plug-in this morning! They refer to it as 2.0 (oooooh). However the plug-in itself says 0.0.1.14. There apparently are some new features. Can't wait to try and see if they fixed some of the bugs I'd previously found!


How do you know? I went there on my Mac and nothing seems to have updated. If I look at About (Inside the app) it says Piano Marvel is at 2.0.0 and the plugin is at 0.0.1.13

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: akc42] #2739649
05/26/18 01:45 PM
05/26/18 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by akc42
Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone

And returning to the Piano Marvel topic, they released a new version of the plug-in this morning! They refer to it as 2.0 (oooooh). However the plug-in itself says 0.0.1.14. There apparently are some new features. Can't wait to try and see if they fixed some of the bugs I'd previously found!

How do you know? I went there on my Mac and nothing seems to have updated. If I look at About (Inside the app) it says Piano Marvel is at 2.0.0 and the plugin is at 0.0.1.13

Previously I had a beta version of the app. Windows did an update on my PC (I have a mini-PC connected to a monitor which I use as my "piano display") and when I went to start Piano Marvel, a message popped up saying there was a new release of the Piano Marvel app and did I want to download/install it. I said yes. It told me certain features were added. And after it installed on my Windows Desktop, I started it and the app appeared showing version "0.0.1.14".
Perhaps the OSX version is lagging behind? While I have a Mac, I don't use it for the piano, so I don't know. You might want to send Customer Support a query about the Mac version.


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2739703
05/26/18 06:53 PM
05/26/18 06:53 PM
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Are there any video after level 3? I haven't encountered any yet, although I could have used the help counting 16th notes (found a youtube video on that though)


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2739766
05/27/18 02:50 AM
05/27/18 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
Are there any video after level 3? I haven't encountered any yet, although I could have used the help counting 16th notes (found a youtube video on that though)


I don't remember any, but the real truth is I never bothered with them anyway, so have't been looking out for them.

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: akc42] #2739783
05/27/18 04:57 AM
05/27/18 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by akc42
Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone

And returning to the Piano Marvel topic, they released a new version of the plug-in this morning! They refer to it as 2.0 (oooooh). However the plug-in itself says 0.0.1.14. There apparently are some new features. Can't wait to try and see if they fixed some of the bugs I'd previously found!


How do you know? I went there on my Mac and nothing seems to have updated. If I look at About (Inside the app) it says Piano Marvel is at 2.0.0 and the plugin is at 0.0.1.13



I got the popup also, windows pc.

I doubt. I have often read and heard that when practicing a piece you have to start very slowly and every note should be correct !!!, because of the finger memory. Even though there are big jumps, which means you have to look at your hands. But I wonder if you will ever feel the notes when it is in different octaves... I must always look at it. I have also already tried from just looking at the sheet and playing the piece so it usually works out about it, but they say your fingers remember the errors and not the right notes... is that true? what should you do then?

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2739857
05/27/18 01:45 PM
05/27/18 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
Are there any video after level 3? I haven't encountered any yet, although I could have used the help counting 16th notes (found a youtube video on that though)

No, you have to find it all yourself.

Today I started back with Marvel. I don't know any more from whom I got the tip but anyway thanks, for classical bootcamp. I had to start somewhere and level 3E where I left off seemed to me way too difficult. Even level 2 of the Bootcamp was hard and it took me a whole afternoon before I got the 100% on the first three songs. I was able to read the notes but I was especially bothered with the tempo, the long and short notes. Tomorrow the fight continues. laugh It will come back, I'm sure. My first SASR test I scored only 365, and I was for a while above the 400. Crazy anyway that you forget everything so quickly... it will be the age smile good excuse for everything that goes wrong.

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2740479
05/29/18 05:08 PM
05/29/18 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarah65
Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
Are there any video after level 3? I haven't encountered any yet, although I could have used the help counting 16th notes (found a youtube video on that though)

No, you have to find it all yourself.

Today I started back with Marvel. I don't know any more from whom I got the tip but anyway thanks, for classical bootcamp. I had to start somewhere and level 3E where I left off seemed to me way too difficult. Even level 2 of the Bootcamp was hard and it took me a whole afternoon before I got the 100% on the first three songs. I was able to read the notes but I was especially bothered with the tempo, the long and short notes. Tomorrow the fight continues. laugh It will come back, I'm sure. My first SASR test I scored only 365, and I was for a while above the 400. Crazy anyway that you forget everything so quickly... it will be the age smile good excuse for everything that goes wrong.

I am terrible at sight-reading. Just terrible. I have been taking the SASR and my current score is 330. I've been close to, but not higher than 400. My current score is so depressing I've even stopped taking the SASR. Because if I think 330 is bad, tomorrow will be 270! So you are doing quite a bit better than I am and I just finished 4-A. I did get some sight-reading exercise books from Amazon.com and hope that by working through the exercises I will improve.

Last edited by Slothrop, Tyrone; 05/29/18 05:15 PM.

across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2740493
05/29/18 05:52 PM
05/29/18 05:52 PM
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Try taking one of the sight reading bootcamps. My score was roughly the same as you when I started. Now I get upset if I don't break the intermediate level at 473 (which I occasionally don't). I did the hymns bootcamp and that helped a lot. I have also done some of the classical bootcamp.

I still feel my eyes read ok, its just my fingers don't do what I want them to.

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2740616
05/30/18 06:05 AM
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Quote

I am terrible at sight-reading. Just terrible. I have been taking the SASR and my current score is 330. I've been close to, but not higher than 400. My current score is so depressing I've even stopped taking the SASR. Because if I think 330 is bad, tomorrow will be 270! So you are doing quite a bit better than I am and I just finished 4-A. I did get some sight-reading exercise books from Amazon.com and hope that by working through the exercises I will improve.



If you go to the library and you type in the search window SASR , then you will get 6 levels sight reading. I've done that to level 3. If you are going to do the test then the surprise is a little less big because you recognize it.

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2740859
05/30/18 09:04 PM
05/30/18 09:04 PM
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Quick question. No fingering instructions for 4-B#6 and 4-B#7 -- Root Position Triads. Are all RPT supposed to always be played with the same exact fingering? 135?


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2740906
05/31/18 02:21 AM
05/31/18 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Quick question. No fingering instructions for 4-B#6 and 4-B#7 -- Root Position Triads. Are all RPT supposed to always be played with the same exact fingering? 135?


Thats certainly what I did. I guess the idea is to teach you about centering


Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2741941
06/04/18 04:06 AM
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Occasionally I still do a SASR test, to remember the notes, and yesterday something strange happened. I got the error message "PDF for song not found" and it continued to repeat the previous song, over and over again laugh I found it so funny that I forgot to do an error message.

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2744141
06/13/18 12:45 PM
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For those of you who have gotten to the upper levels of Piano Marvel (PM), have you noticed a significant improvement in your technique and ability to read and lean music?

I started Piano Marvel a year or so ago and got to level 4, but then I went off on my own to build my repertoire - mostly from the "Easy Classics to Moderns" series. I'm thinking about going back to PM to improve my technique as a supplement to my repertoire building from other sources. I don't find the "songs" in the PM lessons to be that appealing, but I'm willing to go through them if it helps my technique. I'd probably also take the SASR test a few times a week if I do renew my subscription with PM.

I'm assuming I'll get a few "get a teacher" replies, and yes, I'm considering that and know the benefit of a teacher, but I'm particularly curious about the PM lessons - do they ultimately pay off??


Bartok's Mikrokosmos, Book 2
Agay's Easy Classics to Moderns
Playground Sessions, Intermediate (Level 35)

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Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: CLM Piano Learner] #2744145
06/13/18 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CLM Piano Learner

I'm assuming I'll get a few "get a teacher" replies, and yes, I'm considering that and know the benefit of a teacher, but I'm particularly curious about the PM lessons - do they ultimately pay off??


I find that PM after level 3 is rather a disappointment than something to learn. For a beginner, the difference in difficulty level 3/4 is far too large and it lacks instructions and examples after level 3. I may not have done enough to get through the technique, but that seems so boring and useless if you only want to learn to play a few songs for your own pleasure, and especially learn to read sheet music. And that's where PM succeeded, for me anyway.

Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2744152
06/13/18 02:26 PM
06/13/18 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sarah65
Originally Posted by CLM Piano Learner

I'm assuming I'll get a few "get a teacher" replies, and yes, I'm considering that and know the benefit of a teacher, but I'm particularly curious about the PM lessons - do they ultimately pay off??


I find that PM after level 3 is rather a disappointment than something to learn. For a beginner, the difference in difficulty level 3/4 is far too large and it lacks instructions and examples after level 3. I may not have done enough to get through the technique, but that seems so boring and useless if you only want to learn to play a few songs for your own pleasure, and especially learn to read sheet music. And that's where PM succeeded, for me anyway.


I agree. I got really frustrated while in level 4. One reason is that it the songs / exercises were not at all appealing to me. Once I got a "golden star" for a song, I was so relieved to never have to hear the song again. But if they are really good at building up technique, I might be willing to start up again where I left off.


Bartok's Mikrokosmos, Book 2
Agay's Easy Classics to Moderns
Playground Sessions, Intermediate (Level 35)

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Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2744183
06/13/18 04:04 PM
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you might try some of the bootcamps from the library to help with reading, and there are lots of level appropriate arrangements of actual songs in the Library. They seem to be improving them all the time. I have one song (might have been an Elton John song) that when I first added it, didn't have the minced and chopped versions available, but shortly thereafter, it was added.


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Re: Other people do Piano Marvel? [Re: Sarah65] #2744196
06/13/18 05:00 PM
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I think it doesn't matter whether we are playing and practicing to get a trophy closet full or we search the library for songs that we like... we always learn anyway. When I start back I only learn the songs that I find pleasant... since Arabia and Irish Jig I know that it is not necessary to be able to play such miserable songs at an inhuman speed. laugh I am not a masochiste.
And technique we always learn, whatever we play I think. I find the fingering even disturbing, there's already so much you have to look out for and your fingers usually find themselves the most natural way. I usually get confused of those numbers above the notes...It also depends on what you want to achieve with the lessons.

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