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Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743091 06/08/18 04:27 PM
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Moo, another thought for you since people are talking about transcriptions. Have any of your instructors mentioned anything to you about original scores as written by the composer? They are usually in what is called Urtext versions where scholars have researched original archives, original publishings, and other sources to help ensure the composers original music is published?

The simplified versions or transcriptions are not what the composer wrote if that is important to you. I wish my instructors taught me about this during my many years of studying. All they said was something was "original" but I didn't really understand that much until I discovered how incredible the Urtext editions published by G. Henle Verlag, Wiener Urtext, and others are. Many people posting on this site don't believe Urtext editions are special, but I certainly do.

Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 06/08/18 04:29 PM.

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Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Lakeviewsteve #2743101 06/08/18 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lakeviewsteve
Moo, another thought for you since people are talking about transcriptions. Have any of your instructors mentioned anything to you about original scores as written by the composer? They are usually in what is called Urtext versions where scholars have researched original archives, original publishings, and other sources to help ensure the composers original music is published?

The simplified versions or transcriptions are not what the composer wrote if that is important to you. I wish my instructors taught me about this during my many years of studying.

I hope you're not conflating "simplified arrangements" with non-Urtext or with transcriptions.

The three are entirely different. I'd never play any simplified arrangements by anybody of existing piano/lkeyboard music - in fact, I don't think I have since Grade 1, but I'd happily play from non-Urtext scores. And unlike Sviatoslav Richter, I also play transcriptions by great composers like Liszt and Busoni - and Rachmaninov himself -, and have no qualms about playing my own transcriptions either. If I possess a score which is Urtext, it's by accident, not by design.

Even my score of Gaspard de la nuit (Durand © 1909) doesn't say Urtext in any language, but I presume it is, though the low notes in Scarbo that should have been below bottom A have been altered to allow the use of an 88-key piano. Did the composer (who had a ninety-key Érard grand that went down to bottom G) sanction that?

Of course, if I have a Böse Imperial, I'd play the notes he intended.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743103 06/08/18 05:56 PM
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This is Rachmaninoff playing Rachmaninov's transcription for piano of the song Lilacs by Sergei Rachmaninov wink :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72xh91KTOOA


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
bennevis #2743156 06/09/18 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
This is Rachmaninoff playing Rachmaninov's transcription for piano of the song Lilacs by Sergei Rachmaninov wink :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72xh91KTOOA


Thanks for this lovely gem. I googled the sheet music, and it turns out there is a volume of Rachmaninoff transcriptions of his own works and those other composers, published by Alfred, which includes “Daisies” and “Lilacs” as well as famous pieces of other composers which seems very interesting. Probably not suitable for beginners or intermediate players, but adding a Rachmaninoff scented flourish to the transcription is definitely worth investigating.

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/transcriptions-sheet-music/1551675?utm_medium=cpc&adpos=1o1&gclid=CjwKCAjw0ujYBRBDEiwAn7BKt-Um2GTmtjgkFvdv11DJY3c6SIdibtE2S8ntvR7o3W-z_eyZ-HyQWRoCVgwQAvD_BwE&d=sem_sidecar&d=sem_sidecar&d=sem_ggl_%7Bcampaign_id%7D_&popup=false&popup=false&utm_source=google&ac=1&country_code=USA&sc_intid=1551675&scid=scplp1551675

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Bachian #2743195 06/09/18 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by deerfield
it turns out there is a volume of Rachmaninoff transcriptions of his own works and those other composers, published by Alfred, which includes “Daisies” and “Lilacs” as well as famous pieces of other composers which seems very interesting.

For the curious, this is Rach's take on Bach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbTqEYrolQk

...........and this is the original:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VOkrddp6M8

Bach/Rach is played occasionally, but is not as popular as his take on Kreisler (Liebesleid and Liebesfreud). His spicing of Bach's (implied) harmonies is somewhat more of an acquired taste than his Kreisler arrangements - after all, Fritz was a near-contemporary, and they performed & recorded together:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osgKvDsPJ-o


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743214 06/09/18 11:36 AM
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Thank you for the clips, it has turned into a interesting and educational thread. I have a lot of research to do before I pick my next piece.

I only know one transcription so I thought I would share smile

Rachmaninoff transcribed this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHTV3GFyHfM

Into piano

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ch0k9_eiA&fmt=18

x

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
bennevis #2743537 06/10/18 09:52 PM
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Benevis I'm obviously not the expert like you but I stand by what I posted. Thanks for adding. I don't believe I said anything about not liking transcriptions. Earl Wild's transcriptions of Rachmaninoff are great. I was talking about Urtext in case the op wasn't aware of them. Is that alright with you?

Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 06/10/18 09:58 PM.

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Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743587 06/11/18 07:41 AM
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Definitely do "Fragments", I am learning that right now and it seems, by far, the most approachable Rachmaninoff piece. He is my favorite composer as well and everything he composed, as you know, is relatively hard. With the exception of Fragments (It has its challenges, but it is a short 1 or 2 page piece depending on arrangement).


"My dear hands. Farewell, my poor hands."
-Sergei Rachmaninoff

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Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743625 06/11/18 12:22 PM
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Some good suggestions so far and some that I think are not even close to the easiest Rach pieces. Besides the Fiorentino Vocalise transcription I previously mentioned which one can obtain with screenshots of the video, I would go with the Preludes in D major, B major, and G flat major. The last two have not been mentioned yet I think. IMO the Preludes in F# major, B minor, and C# Minor and Fragments are reasonable choices also.

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743640 06/11/18 01:28 PM
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Also suggesting the Prelude in E flat Major.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/11/18 01:28 PM.
Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743705 06/11/18 06:33 PM
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Thank you for the suggestions.

I think I found one that is doable for me and sounds quite fun.

Its No. 2 Waltz in A major from the suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtQkrccGw_A

What do you think ?

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743727 06/11/18 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thank you for the suggestions.

I think I found one that is doable for me and sounds quite fun.

Its No. 2 Waltz in A major from the suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtQkrccGw_A

What do you think ?
If you like that piece quite a bit then it's fine. OTOH I think that some of these very early Rach works are so little performed because many don't think highly of them.

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
pianoloverus #2743895 06/12/18 01:28 PM
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.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thank you for the suggestions.

I think I found one that is doable for me and sounds quite fun.

Its No. 2 Waltz in A major from the suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtQkrccGw_A

What do you think ?
If you like that piece quite a bit then it's fine. OTOH I think that some of these very early Rach works are so little performed because many don't think highly of them.


Who are these many people that don't think highly of them? Rather than true I think it very rude.


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Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Lakeviewsteve #2743911 06/12/18 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lakeviewsteve

.
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Moo :)
Thank you for the suggestions.

I think I found one that is doable for me and sounds quite fun.

Its No. 2 Waltz in A major from the suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtQkrccGw_A

What do you think ?
If you like that piece quite a bit then it's fine. OTOH I think that some of these very early Rach works are so little performed because many don't think highly of them.


Who are these many people that don't think highly of them? Rather than true I think it very rude.
Just look on YouTube and you'll see that the Nocturne has few performances by major pianists so I think it's clearly true. I've also never seen it on a recital program played in NYC for the last 50 years or so. Some of his early pieces are played a lot and are quite good but IMO this is not one of them. I simply wanted to make sure the OP wasn't
t choosing it only because it was "doable" since I think there are equally doable pieces of higher quality.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/12/18 02:44 PM.
Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2743960 06/12/18 06:25 PM
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yes perhaps that is correct. probably focusing too much on doable rather than pick my fav piece. ok i will put the rach on the backburner. my fav was polichinelle, i'm not sure i have the agility at the moment for it. i played a march by grieg and it takes ages to get the agility to play it. thank you all for the tips.

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2744068 06/13/18 06:22 AM
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I'd say that's a good decision Moo. Much better to spend some time on one of the 'easier' preludes where you can start to learn to conquer some of the typical Rachmaninoff technical hurdles, even if you don't finnish it this time. The preludes all have that distinctive Rachmaninoff sound too that the waltz lacked in my opinion. I would have guessed Chopin smile

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2754478 07/29/18 08:32 AM
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I have started learning my first Rachmaninoff piece after all.



My lesson next lesson is not for a while so anyone can help I have two questions :

1) I forgot to ask about pedal - are there any pedal recommendations or is it sounding ok ?

2) Any idea how to play the left hand 3rd last bar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=332&v=ElYS7lyJ3O4

Here is the sheet music above. This one is really bugging me. I have tried to work it out but now I am really confused. I'm not sure how to play as there are '3' markings over most of the beats. Also in the left hand we have a second '3' marking over two crotchets in 2nd and 4th beat. Help plz.

Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2754481 07/29/18 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
2) Any idea how to play the left hand 3rd last bar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=332&v=ElYS7lyJ3O4

Here is the sheet music above. This one is really bugging me. I have tried to work it out but now I am really confused. I'm not sure how to play as there are '3' markings over most of the beats. Also in the left hand we have a second '3' marking over two crotchets in 2nd and 4th beat. Help plz.

There are several triplets in each 'voice', some of them overlapping.

A triplet is three note values in the time of two.

So, in the top line ('soprano' line), you have a minim and a crotchet to be played in the time of two crotchets. On the line below it, still in RH, you have the second group of three quavers (all in thirds) to be played in the time of two quavers within the tripletized whole as per the soprano line.

Ditto for the LH notes.

But bear in mind that the whole bar is already 'tripletized', therefore you have triplets within triplets, as indicated by the triplet signs top and bottom (soprano and bass lines). In other words, the second line in RH (with the thirds) has six quavers to be played in the time of four quavers, but with the second group of three quavers to be played within the time of two quavers within the tripletized whole.

Probably best to think of that bar in 6/4 time rather than 4/4, then you can remove the triplet signs on the top and bottom. But make sure the whole bar is played in the same period of time as the preceding bar with no triplets.

Quote
in the left hand we have a second '3' marking over two crotchets in 2nd and 4th beat

That's not over two crotchets, that's over a quaver rest and a crotchet, i.e. three quavers in the time of two (the crotchet in the bass line) - just as in the first group of triplets. Remember, that's the 'tenor line' with upward pointing stems.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2754524 07/29/18 01:48 PM
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Re: Doable Rachmaninoff
Moo :) #2754525 07/29/18 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)

Er......yes (though I had to hang upside down from the ceiling to read it wink )


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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