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Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman #2743901
06/12/18 02:03 PM
06/12/18 02:03 PM
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hyena Online content OP
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I'd love some feedback on some of the variations.

I skipped some variations, since I wasn't entirely comfortable playing them while recording yet.


https://soundcloud.com/dario-sanchez-martinez-417965971/mozart-a-vous-dirais-je-maman

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Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743920
06/12/18 03:36 PM
06/12/18 03:36 PM
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Maybe I'm just more self-conscious but I wouldn't ask for feedback from strangers until I had the piece pretty solid first. It was rather tiresome to listen to your stumbling through it. Not bad for a first attempt but it really needs more work.

That apart I think it would be a better idea to work on each variation as if it were a separate piece and have it fully secure at a half-decent tempo before moving to the next variation. The material is similar from one variation to the next so it should become easier as you master more of them.

Your tempo is not even. You seem to be slightly speeding up when it's easier and slowing down for the harder parts.

My teacher always told me to play the melody without any trills or ornaments until I had a good grasp of the phrasing. I would follow that advice if I were learning this piece.

OK, I'll stop criticizing now. Please don't take any of it personally. wink


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Grieg op. 57 no. 6
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Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743922
06/12/18 03:48 PM
06/12/18 03:48 PM
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No worries, I've got thick skin. Feedback from strangers is much more valuable really, now I know I need to do a lot more metronome work. So thanks you! Eveness in rhythm seems to be an issue in general for me, I always think the metronome is finally in my head, but when I turn it of it's still a mentally flawed metronome. I guess I need to consciously count.

Any tips on getting the rhythm as solid as stone?

Last edited by hyena; 06/12/18 03:49 PM.
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743928
06/12/18 03:57 PM
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Hyena
I think you are rushing to play this fast too quickly; We all want to do that naturally; as least I know I have to force myself to play slowly, as slow as it takes to get it correct and even. Back your practice up a little bit and I think you’ll be rewarded.

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Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: Qazsedcft] #2743932
06/12/18 04:01 PM
06/12/18 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Maybe I'm just more self-conscious but I wouldn't ask for feedback from strangers until I had the piece pretty solid ....

I disagree. If I'm performing and trying to impress people, including friends and family, then yes. But as a learner, yes, you do your best, but when you give "warts and all", this is the first step to improvement. What you see as "stumbling about" may not be that at all. Otoh, it can give valuable insight into how he is practising and approaching music, which in turn can lead to guidance.

Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743933
06/12/18 04:04 PM
06/12/18 04:04 PM
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Hyena, how are you practising right now? What is your process? For example, do you chunk into smaller sections - analyze the piece first so that you can plan how to work on it in stages - look at areas of weaknesses and how to go at that strategically?
I think (?) I hear improvements from when you first came on with your playing, and you seem to have worked hard. Not that my ear is the best. It takes courage to put yourself out there like that.

Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743935
06/12/18 04:11 PM
06/12/18 04:11 PM
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I really do think that 'It was rather tiresome to listen to your stumbling through it.' is unnecessarily cruel.

I'll be sure not to post any of my work on here if that's what you can expect.


God's own county smile
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743936
06/12/18 04:15 PM
06/12/18 04:15 PM
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One idea I'll throw out there with metronome work is to practice something like 16th note = 216 (or whatever is highest on metronome I forget the number). It may seem painfully slow at first but will help with evenness and iron out those small fits where your fingers seem to stumble.

I like keystring's suggestion to of divide and conquer. Make sure your repetitions are 100% correct otherwise you will be learning mistakes which are very difficult to correct later. This will also require slowing down to such a point that you can play things correctly.

Just a suggestion - some will disparage using a metronome altogether which I don't understand. Its just a tool.


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Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: keystring] #2743937
06/12/18 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Hyena, how are you practising right now? What is your process? For example, do you chunk into smaller sections - analyze the piece first so that you can plan how to work on it in stages - look at areas of weaknesses and how to go at that strategically?
I think (?) I hear improvements from when you first came on with your playing, and you seem to have worked hard. Not that my ear is the best. It takes courage to put yourself out there like that.


I do practice variations individually, though I should really chunk it down even more. I've done slow practice before with this piece too! Though, I think I've kind of lost the rhythm again.

So usually when I start playing, I first play the entire piece first. Then when I notice a bump, I go to that variation, trying to get the bump out. As for rhythm... I don't think I do much for rhythm at all, sometimes I do put on the metronome, or play it slow, but it isn't part of my practice habit.

For the rest it's quite chaotic, I work a little on the first part of the variation 1, then maybe 3, then maybe the second part of 2.

And thank you! I don't really mind putting my pieces on the table though, criticism is where I'm doing it for. I'm not expecting a back rub!

Originally Posted by Vid
Just a suggestion - some will disparage using a metronome altogether which I don't understand. Its just a tool.


I do sometimes try turning it off, to count out loud. But I should really do that more often! So I suppose I'll pull the metronome back a lot and turn those 16th notes in 4ths.

Last edited by hyena; 06/12/18 04:30 PM.
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: Lillith] #2743939
06/12/18 04:31 PM
06/12/18 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Lillith
I really do think that 'It was rather tiresome to listen to your stumbling through it.' is unnecessarily cruel.

I'll be sure not to post any of my work on here if that's what you can expect.


Hi Lilith
This type of comment is not what is expected in the ABF. .... and actually occurs very seldom here.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: keystring] #2743954
06/12/18 05:31 PM
06/12/18 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Maybe I'm just more self-conscious but I wouldn't ask for feedback from strangers until I had the piece pretty solid ....

I disagree. If I'm performing and trying to impress people, including friends and family, then yes. But as a learner, yes, you do your best, but when you give "warts and all", this is the first step to improvement. What you see as "stumbling about" may not be that at all. Otoh, it can give valuable insight into how he is practising and approaching music, which in turn can lead to guidance.

I tend to agree with keystring : when seeking for advices to improve, it is best to seek for them when still early in the process of learning, because it is easier to correct mistakes at this stage of learning.

Also, on a personnal perspective, I like to share pieces at early stages of learning to set it as a milestone. Learning can be a long and discouraging process. Having the possibility to look back on a previous recording to hear the improvement is, for me, a source of motivation when I feel that I'm not making any progress. It is true that I'm not actively seeking advices on these recordings, but I post them on my youtube channel and welcome advices if someone should have any!
If I hadn't a teacher, I would look for advices more actively at earlier stages of learning so I'm sure I do not practice mistakes I don't realize I'm doing.


Not bad for a "work in progress" version. I've tried to tackle some of those recently, thinking I could learn a variation in 2 weeks... and realized it was too difficult to learn it that fast (so I'm not sure what I should do : stick with it or switch to something easier).
Anyway, I'm not here to talk about me. ^^

I don't have anything more to say that what was already said, so I'll just say : keep it up! smile


My piano journey from day 1
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Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743957
06/12/18 05:51 PM
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i think the french title is like 'vous dirai-je? . i think it means something like 'will you tell me ?' dirais is a conditional tense. when u invert a verb (e.g. je dirai into dirai-je) you add the -.

some comments:

i'd stress the 1st beats slightly more than the offbeats. this will make it sound more musical. DA-da - Da-da - Da-da etc. it sounded to me like you stressed the offbeat or play both with same intensity. try not to overdo it but this. i think this will help it sound more which tuneful.

i personally would have some slightly change in the rhythm. for example at the end of a phrase or section, to delay the last chord when you resolve. this really adds to the effect.

i'd ask your teacher regarding how to play it regarding the articulation. i could not find any good copy as to whether to play it very detached or legato. you had a mixed of pedal and detached. i would have tried a more semi-legato feel with spared piano. perhaps this will make it a bit smoother. i will ask the teacher and experiment with this.

personally i think you have played it much smoother than other pieces. it is mostly secure in some places and i think the general effect is there. i personally would try to think about how to make it more musical.
\
do you have a copy of the sheet music you used ? it may help to give some more feedback if you have concerns regarding a specific section. the one i saw had some more variations and i'm not familiar exactly with this comptine.

Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743965
06/12/18 07:08 PM
06/12/18 07:08 PM
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The French title is «Ah vous dirai-je maman». wink

But I must say I've always thought it was «dirais-je» (conditional, and not future).

Which means «ha, mom, will I tell you».

The lyrics goes

«Ah vous dirai-je maman
Ce qui cause mon tourment.
Depuis que j'ai vu Lysandre
Me regarder d'un oeil tendre.
Mon coeur dit à chaque instant
Peut-on vivre sans amant?»

Which could approximately translate to :

«Will I tell you, dear mother
What is troubling/torturing me
Since I saw Lysandre
Looking at me in a lovely way
My heart keep asking
Can you live without a lover?»

This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^


My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: CadenzaVvi] #2743971
06/12/18 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jouishy

This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^

Not as weird as "Baa baa black sheep".......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743973
06/12/18 07:42 PM
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Mainly because it isn't really about the words itself, literal translation would mean the notes don't fit over the vowels anymore.

Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743975
06/12/18 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jouishy

This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^

Not as weird as "Baa baa black sheep".......

What does this refert to?

Originally Posted by hyena
Mainly because it isn't really about the words itself, literal translation would mean the notes don't fit over the vowels anymore.

I guess this is true. Still, many Disney songs (for instance) keep the meaning in the translation. But this is important in the context of a movie. This is not in the context of the child song.


My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: CadenzaVvi] #2743980
06/12/18 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jouishy
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jouishy

This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^

Not as weird as "Baa baa black sheep".......

What does this refert to?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43iLKAl18jo


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: CadenzaVvi] #2743981
06/12/18 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Jouishy
The French title is «Ah vous dirai-je maman». wink

But I must say I've always thought it was «dirais-je» (conditional, and not future).
....,.
This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^


‘Twinkle, twinkle, little star’ is not a translation but lyrics from a 19th century English poem, set to the French melody

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkle,_Twinkle,_Little_Star


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: CadenzaVvi] #2743983
06/12/18 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jouishy
I guess this is true. Still, many Disney songs (for instance) keep the meaning in the translation. But this is important in the context of a movie. This is not in the context of the child song.


Yeah indeed, though Disney doesn't just change the language though, they change a lot more to make it fit. Here watch this, the same Disney song played together in different languages. Skip to 14 minutes.



Last edited by hyena; 06/12/18 08:18 PM.
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2743991
06/12/18 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hyena
I'd love some feedback on some of the variations.

I've almost finished learning the entire piece, just the polishing is pending, so I'll offer some tips.
I think each variation teaches a new skill/technique which, IMO, should be fluently learned before moving on to the next variation. Don't rush it. It takes as long as it takes. I think the most challenging aspect of this piece is playing it fast. Once you slow down sufficiently, the piece isn't as challenging. This especially true for the 12th variation, which is harder than the others by quite a margin IMO. It uses many of the techniques learned in the other variations. Speeding up IMO is one of the last steps.

I notice that you play the Theme at a very good tempo for learning the piece. I suggest that you follow the same tempo or even slower tempo while learning the variations.
Regarding Variation 1, I notice that the rhythm and evenness of the scale runs is more or less okay, but during the parts with the longer intervals, you seem to rhythmically stumble a bit, and the evenness from tone also goes a bit off. I suggest some hands separate practice for this part. It especially helped me while speeding up.
Regarding Variation 2, I would suggest you try to achieve legato in the left hand without using any pedal. The left hand part, again, could benefit from some hands separate practice. Without getting the left hand pattern well under the fingers, Variation 12 would be extremely challenging to pull off. Also, I don't think you're holding down all the notes for the appropriate time intervals in the right hand.
I use hands separate practice only to address any challenges with rhythm or evenness that I am unable to address while playing hands together.

Here is an excellent analysis of this piece (there's a part 2 as well). It helped me a lot.

This is an excellent piece, both musically and technically. I hope you have a lot of fun learning this smile

Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2744007
06/12/18 10:19 PM
06/12/18 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Jouishy
The French title is «Ah vous dirai-je maman». wink

But I must say I've always thought it was «dirais-je» (conditional, and not future).
....,.
This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^


‘Twinkle, twinkle, little star’ is not a translation but lyrics from a 19th century English poem, set to the French melody

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkle,_Twinkle,_Little_Star

I've figured that it wasn't a translation. :P
I guess I miss-spoke. I meant that I'm surprised that the English version of the song has so different lyrics.

But I didn't know the origins, so thanks for the info. smile


Originally Posted by hyena
Originally Posted by Jouishy
I guess this is true. Still, many Disney songs (for instance) keep the meaning in the translation. But this is important in the context of a movie. This is not in the context of the child song.


Yeah indeed, though Disney doesn't just change the language though, they change a lot more to make it fit. Here watch this, the same Disney song played together in different languages. Skip to 14 minutes.



Interesting! I'll go watch the entire clip a little bit later. It seems a very interesting analysis.



My piano journey from day 1
Started piano on February 2016.
Pieces I'm working on :
- Mozart's K545, 1st and 3rd mov
- Tina's theme from FF VI piano collections
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2744010
06/12/18 10:39 PM
06/12/18 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by hyena
. . .
Any tips on getting the rhythm as solid as stone?


Record your own playing, at a slow tempo. It's much easier to hear uneven playing in a recording, than when you're busy playing.

Slow down the piece, until you can play it all -- hard parts and easy parts -- at the same tempo. A metronome might be useful for that.

Then, _gradually_ (over many repetitions) speed it up:

. . . You shoud give the "hard parts" extra practice.

Identify the hardest section -- the one where you want to slow down the most. _Gradually_ work on speeding it up.

The tempo of the piece, when you perform it, shouldn't be any faster than you can play the hardest section.


. Charles
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Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: bennevis] #2744041
06/13/18 02:53 AM
06/13/18 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jouishy

This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^

Not as weird as "Baa baa black sheep".......


Haha, funny you should say that. I suddenly realised only last week as I was in the kitchen preparing tea that Twinkle twinkle and Baa Baa black sheep have the same tune!!!


God's own county smile
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: Lillith] #2744051
06/13/18 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Lillith
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Jouishy

This is partly why I find it really weird that it translated to "twinkle twinkle little star", which is very very different from the original lyrics. ^^

Not as weird as "Baa baa black sheep".......


Haha, funny you should say that. I suddenly realised only last week as I was in the kitchen preparing tea that Twinkle twinkle and Baa Baa black sheep have the same tune!!!


Also the ABCDEFG song smile

Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2744052
06/13/18 04:11 AM
06/13/18 04:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 148
England
Lillith Online content
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Lillith  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 148
England
Originally Posted by hyena

Also the ABCDEFG song smile


Aaaarrrggghhh!!! I hadn't realised that one either smile
Hope there aren't any more!!


God's own county smile
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: Lillith] #2744054
06/13/18 04:28 AM
06/13/18 04:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 327
Just outside London UK
akc42 Offline
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akc42  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 327
Just outside London UK
Originally Posted by Lillith


Haha, funny you should say that. I suddenly realised only last week as I was in the kitchen preparing tea that Twinkle twinkle and Baa Baa black sheep have the same tune!!!


Not in my versions they don't. They are similar but

In C Major Twinkle = C C G G A A G F F E E D D C
Baa Baa = C C G G A B C(oct) A G F F E E D D C

Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: akc42] #2744056
06/13/18 04:48 AM
06/13/18 04:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 148
England
Lillith Online content
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Lillith  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 148
England
Originally Posted by akc42
Originally Posted by Lillith


Haha, funny you should say that. I suddenly realised only last week as I was in the kitchen preparing tea that Twinkle twinkle and Baa Baa black sheep have the same tune!!!


Not in my versions they don't. They are similar but

In C Major Twinkle = C C G G A A G F F E E D D C
Baa Baa = C C G G A B C(oct) A G F F E E D D C



Haha!!
That's well near enough for an amateur like me to be called the same smile
would you settle for 'a variation on'?


God's own county smile
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2744062
06/13/18 05:36 AM
06/13/18 05:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 527
Bristol, UK
T
timmyab Offline
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timmyab  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 527
Bristol, UK
What I would recommened is that you slow down the tempo until you can play the notes evenly, both in terms of tempo and volume. If that means playing half speed then that's fine. The worst thing you can do is to practice inaccuracies because they become intrenched. Much better to practice slowly and accurately and gradually increase the metronome tempo. Keep recording yourself and slow down again if you hear too much uneveness creaping back in. Don't worry if there is some small amount of uneveness, it's a challenge with Mozart that is very difficult to master.
Finger exercises are useful for playing Mozart, Hanon and suchlike.

Last edited by timmyab; 06/13/18 05:38 AM.
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2744085
06/13/18 08:33 AM
06/13/18 08:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 148
England
Lillith Online content
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Lillith  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 148
England
@hyena
I think that the main problem is one I and most other new pianists share with you - you play the easy bits fast and the harder bits slow.
It really is a pain to slow everything down to the pace of your slowest/hardest bit (well I find it very very very hard) but the experts do say that is what we have to do and I'm trying my best.

I've just got a copy of the sheet music and your effort has inspired me to have a go myself. smile
It's ranked grade 5, from what I can tell, and I'm nowhere near that, but heigh ho, nothing ventured..... smile


God's own county smile
Re: Feedback on Mozart: A Vous dirais je maman [Re: hyena] #2744095
06/13/18 09:31 AM
06/13/18 09:31 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,315
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,315
Florida
Hyena, after reading the initial comments I expected to hear a mess, but then after a few hours I went back, read some more comments, and listened myself. I wasn't familiar with the title but of course I am familiar with the basic tune. While I am nowhere near qualified to give technical feedback but felt I would post a positive comment. I enjoyed it and was pleasantly surprised but the music. Yes, a little steadier tempo will help; that is something which I struggle with at times, particularly in fast runs or (relatively) complex pieces. By and large, though, it seems like you're notes are accurate and the phrasing is decent. I think it's well on it's way. Keep it up!

Btw I just began Mozart's K545. The truth is I really don't like this era at all; I greatly prefer the Romantic era, with it's dynamics, rubato, and expression. However, my teacher felt it would be important to develop the skill to play faster runs at a steady pace, and that it would help me advance in the era that I do prefer, rounding out my limited skill set. I'm not excited about this undertaking; it feels more like work than fun. Point is, it seems to me these pieces have a unique technical challenge to them, rapidity and evenness that takes a lot of work.


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Consolidating My Repertoire
Mozart K545
Chopin Sonata 20, Posthumous, in C-Sharp Minor
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