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Hi everyone - first post from a long time lurker here.

It’s time to upgrade my piano from a 1996 Samick-made Altenburg 510R. It’s actually not a bad piano - for half the price of a C3 at the time, it was actually amazing and it let me start out adulthood with a grand piano. I’m pretty convinced that a great tech could probably replace the hammers, put in oversize pins, and voice/regulate the heck out of it to make it extremely respectable. But for us, it’s time to move on. (Current repertoire is Mendelssohn/Chopin/Mozart/Beethoven, a bit of Bach, and a desire to do more... plus jazz/rock/pop, and a real desire to take formal jazz lessons.)


Top contenders for me are a new Mason & Hamlin AA and a Shigeru Kawai SK5. (Very different pianos, I know.) I’m hoping to try a new Forster 190 but my local dealer only has a 170 on the floor. And given the amazing rebuilt BB’s that I’ve played, I’d love to compare the new AA to a new BB but again, the dealer doesn’t have one. And I’m still looking for the elusive perfectly rebuilt but affordable Steinway B, probably a result of an overly romanticized view of that piano,

I’ve learned in this search that I don’t have a preconceived notion of a specific piano sound that I want. Multiple things speak to me when I play them in the stores. Generally, I’d have thought that I prefer a “European” tone as pianos like Schimmel, Forster, and Bechstein had appealed to me in the past, whereas Baldwin never did it for me. Steinway was always in a separate class just because nearly every concert and recording I’d ever heard had a Steinway - so the sound is familiar. But the Masons have captivated me with their richness, and there is a real clarity in the tenor / treble that can sing above that rich bass. I might have even bought that AA already had it not been for a serious click on key release that the dealer has been working with MH to address. He says it’s been fixed (replaced the knuckles) but is bringing in a tech to do a complete regulation to make sure that things are right before I come back to try it.

But the main thing that I’ve learend is that many piano dealers and rebuilders are full of crap. I’ve had dealers tell me all kinds of stories: The Shigeru is no different then a well prepped GX (by a dealer who carried GX but not Shigeru); Mason has real quality problems and those composite actions are nothing but trouble (by a dealer who I’m told lost the Mason line but has one used pre-composite action piano on the floor that is an exception to the quality issues); Bechstein Academy pianos aren’t even made in Germany. Every rebuilder tells me that they are the only rebuilder who does things “right” as evidenced by their history / warranty / factory / personal training from Angelo Andino; meanwhile, most of the local technicians are wary of any rebuilt pianos because of the hack jobs that they’ve seen.

I feel that I’m lucky to have found two dealers that are trustworthy (rarity: each of them acknowledges that in a world filled with shysters, the other dealer is at least a nice, honest guy). One of them is the Mason dealer who has been very transparent with me about the work needed to eliminate the click, and his desire to bring in a regulator. It’s almost definite that one of them will get the business at this point and I venture to say that part of the reason is that their approach and attitude kept me in their stores long enough to find, play, and appreciate some great pianos.

But why is it that folks in this business make it so hard for us? This industry needs to go through some changes in its marketing and sales strategy.

~Steve

The sales strategy will change when buyers like yourself don’t buy based on the strong-arm sales tactic, but spend where the sales pitch is more even-handed. This takes a lot of research prior to even visiting a piano store to be able to separate out the hype. I’m afraid I don’t think we’re there yet as a buying group which I actually find surprising because the purchase of a piano is a relatively high ticket item.

Since you are in NYC and I know that Faust Harrison Pianos no longer carries Masons, can you tell me which dealer does carry Mason Hamlin now?

In in the NY are but not in the city... and Altenburg Piano House in Elizabeth NJ carries Masons. He has an A and an AA on the floor now; please don’t buy the AA out from under me - but do tell Fred Altenburg that I sent you there. This may be the 3rd piano that my family buys from his family (my upright Sohmer when I was a kid, the current grand, and maybe the Mason. He also carries Forster and has the 170.

It's tough because, in 6-7 foot, high quality grands, not that many are being sold in the US, so competition to make a sale (and a little profit) is fierce, particularly among a sales force driven by commissions.

Sounds like you've narrowed it down to 2 good options and 2 good dealers, I'd probably wait and try the M&H after they say it's ready, before pulling the trigger on anything.

Hi NYSteve,

Although it's a little distance away from you in NYC, you might consider visiting the M&H factory in Haverhill, MA. I toured the factory last year (by myself, not with the PW gang, alas), and played every piano in the 6th floor showroom. You might find an AA there without the clicking problem.

Also sending you a PM.

-LLW
Maine

Masons are great pianos. My only advice would be not to buy any piano that has already been identified as having a defect, whether or not it gets fixed before you make your decision. Find a Mason that does not have the click--it will be a great piano and you will not be buying a known problem with it. Masons of course are hand made, so the fact that one has a click does not mean that another will have it. But any fix of a serious problem that is there before you buy the piano may or may not be permanent--why take the chance, when there are other Masons out there?

1. Mason Hamlin uses a lot of modern machinery in their production. For many parts of piano building "hand made" is inferior to machine made.
2. I think it goes without saying that not all Masons have a clicking action but it has nothing to do with how they are made. It they all had clicks it would mean all their pianos were defective.
3. Whether or not it makes sense to buy this piano after the clicking is fixed would depend on the cause of the clicking IMO.

Rank Amateur - thanks for the perspective. I”ve been wondering about this, but of course I think that depends on what the defect actually is. I’m no technician but it seems like  some problems could be self-contained (perhaps this key click - replace the offending component and be done with it) while there are other problems that would be more systemic (inability to hold a tune well or perhaps lack of sustain). Those could indicate structural issues (perhaps).

They only thing that concerns me is: does the fact that this piano got through QC with this click mean that someone asleep at the switch that day? And if so, are there other problems that should have been caught?

Meanwhile, I do want to say that the dealer has been very good about keeping me posted on how this repair has gone and why he wants to get the piano regulated after this repair and before I check it out again. And, to LLW’s point: the dealer did mention that a factory visit is a possibility if I want to look at a BB; I’m sure that if I wanted to check out a different AA that way he’d be amenable too.

I don't think that the click proves anything about QC. It might have turned up later, for example after the piano had been moved or after the parts settled in to each other a bit. Problems--major or minor--that show up after the piano has left the factory are the main reason for buying a piano with a warranty, at least in my opinion. I'm sure that this one (or any other Mason), bought new from an authorized source, will come with an excellent factory warranty, and I know from personal experience that Mason stands behind its pianos. If you think about it, given the number of parts, it is remarkable how little goes wrong with new pianos. And Masons are fabulous--you will never regret getting one!

From a Steinway B owner, they can be wonderful, lovely pianos. But then some of them, well not so much. It takes doing some research and shopping around, and as you indicated, finding one rebuilt by a quality rebuilder who really knows what he/she is doing to bring out the best in them. I'm now the owner of an S&S B, because I happened to be in the right place at the right time and got a good deal on a very lovely piano. As much as I love mine, I'd go for a nice M&H BB any day. Since you're not locked in to a specific sound, M&H pianos are wonderful instruments and much more affordable compared to the S&S B.

Incidentally, I had my S&S B action stack rebuilt last year with the same WNG composite action they use in the new M&H pianos. I absolutely love it! I've had no issues. I think the click in the piano you're considering is an isolated occurrence. WNG did have some issues with the composite actions early on, but the technician who did my rebuild said that M&H and WNG have worked hard and listened to feedback from many independent technicians to rectify the issues and make marked improvements based on the input from the field. I wouldn't be at all leary of the WNG Composite action.

Have you tried the Shigeru Kawai SK-5 yet? I saw it was on your list. I played one recently and became quite enamored with it. The dealer who told you that there was not real difference between the Shigeru and a well prepped GX was full of it.

I agree that dealer is full of it. He doesn’t carry the Shigeru but wants to make a sale so it’s not hard to see his motive for dismissing the differences between the two pianos. I’d personally contact whoever is in charge of the U.S. Kawai distribution and let them know about this dealer’s sales tactics.

The super offensive one was someone who carries the GX but not the Shigeru and insisted that I try their GX3 even though I had been looking at the SK5. I don’t know if the point was to showcase the similarities (of which I found few) or to just assert similarities that I might agree to and then point out how inferior it is to other of his better pianos. Annoying.

I had occasion, recently, to play a GX-3 fully prepped on site by Don Manino and an out of the box, though tuned, SK-2, factory prep only.

I fully expected to like the SK-2 better.

I liked that GX-3 better.

There was no SK-3 available, so I couldn't make a comparison.

I am aware that the GX-3 is bigger, and the comparison not exactly apples to apples, but I thought the tone in the mid and treble areas of the GX-3 would suffer alongside the Shigeru-Kawai, and they didn't.

I also played a SK-5 and SK-6 which were both wonderful, and an SK-7 which I liked a lot though not as well as one I played in Beijing.

The sales rep let the instruments speak for themselves.

My conclusion: Shigeru-Kawai is the premium instrument line, and model for model, side by side, will out perform the Blak series. They have a more refined "feel"; in general, the tone is more "vibrant". That said, if you're on a budget that precludes a Shigeru-Kawai, do not despair. If you find a GX that you like, investing in a day's work at your home from a highly qualified, Shigeru-Kawai trained technician, might get you a great instrument for less money. And, of course, I did say, "...that you like". I wouldn't advise buying anything in the hopes of changing it in any fundamental way later.

Thanks so much for that comparison.

The SK5 that I played really sang, to me. So did the Mason AA, but for totally different reasons.

Decisions decisions. Hope to hear back from the Mason dealer today on how the regulation went.

On a slightly related note, I was deciding between a used SK3 and a used RX3. I think the SK3 did sound better. I think the biggest notable difference were the hammers and prep work on the SK3. RX3 felt slightly heavier, which I actually prefer. My tech who has no stake said some people prefer the sound and feel of the regular Kawai compared to the Shigeru. It’s a very personal thing. With similar actions and same scale design, I went with the RX3. The $25,000 difference for me could pay for a lot of prep work. Sometimes I yearn for the Shigeru, but I think it’s mostly for want of a first tier hand crafted item. I don’t think my daily playing would notice much of a difference. With that financial savings, I like to think that I could have gotten myself a “free” car or partial kitchen renovation or several very nice vacations, etc.

My understanding is that at the RX5/GX5/SK5 size that you’re looking at,, the pianos start getting really good. But I dont have the space or the need for that much piano.

Those are indeed different instruments. From the Shigeru Kawai I have tried at least five SK-3, as well as an SK-6, and an SK-7. They are great instruments, very nice, consistent action. The SK-5 is by some considered an odd ball, and the only reason to choose it would be to fit available space. The SK-3 is by far the most frequently bought size around where I live. They differ (individual SK-3) quite a bit in sound though, at least to my ears.

I recently tried the August Förster 190. The name is somewhat misleading, since both the 190 and 215 are in fact 4 cm longer than the name suggests. It was a dream (almost) come true (cannot afford to buy it yet). It has an amazing base for an instrument this size. This particular instrument could play soft similar to what you can experience from a Bösendorfer, and had a wonderful dynamic range. It had a very intimate sound, and suited equally well for jazz and classic. The strings are single-strung, which (I believe) adds to the clarity of the tone. You could even strike a chord in the base, without it sounding distorted. It took me 7 hours by car one way to try out the instrument, but it turned out to be worth it. Personally I found it a much more interesting piano than for instance Steinway A. It is very well suited for a home environment.

Since you live in the US, I guess most people would prefer the Mason & Hamlin AA (193cm). However, I would strongly encourage you to try out the Förster. As with all pianos, there are great and not so great individuals from even the best manufactures. They all sound different. I noticed this with Steinway, Kawai, Schimmel and Yamaha to name a few. I have only tried two Mason & Hamlin, both rebuilt (original sound board). As with all rebuilds, I did not particularly like it. They have a different feel than new instruments.

If you are more interested in pianos than most, you could of course take a trip to the factory. This might be a good idea if you decide on a brand that is less common. As for the 170, I would never choose that if you have space for more.

Hi Steve,
Hi Steve,

I called the M&H Factory Store in Haverhill, MA. They definitely have more than one AA's and BB's for you to try. Given your proximity to the factory, in NYC, this is probably your best bet of comparing multiple 6'4" AA's relative to each other and also compare them to the larger 7' BB's. I'm sure they would be happy to coordinate this with your local authorized M&H dealer. From our last PianoWorld visit, I recall they may also have some Grotrian-Steinwegs in the size range you are looking for you to try in comparison as well.

Take Care,

Mr. Solomonides,

Would this be a sale through the local dealer, a la a selection at the Steinway factory, or is the dealer network being bypassed? Is this something they do with all models, or specific sizes only? Just curious.