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yamaha reface cp, anyone? #2725336
03/30/18 09:37 AM
03/30/18 09:37 AM
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Tor E Bekken Offline OP
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Are there opinions on the YAMAHA REFACE CP out there? Anyone? I consider getting one, after seeing this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dru8pHObCa0 and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqV5iwnknW0

Last edited by DrBekken; 03/30/18 09:52 AM.
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Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2725651
03/31/18 02:30 PM
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FWIW (these opinions are based on a fairly short test play months ago, and pre-existing biases):

1. The sound generator is remarkably good -- limited, but really nice within those limits.

2. The mini-key action is good, within the mini-key universe. It is way worse than a full-size-key action. If you haven't tried it, you should find one, and develop your own opinion.

3. 37 keys is not enough for serious playing. For example, the fugue in the first video is severely limited in its pitch range -- the voices all seem to run into one another. 37 keys is just enough (for example) to cover the pitch range of a mixed choir.

If you want to drive the Reface CP sound generator from another MIDI keyboard, I think it would be very nice.

What really bothered me about the "Reface" series is that you'd want to have them _all_ -- and that's not a cheap proposition. (For FM fans, the Reface FM uses 4-operator voices; the DX7 used 6-operator voices.)

If I owned one, I wouldn't take it to the beach. Salt and sand can be really nasty!<g>

I thought I started a thread about it, but I can't find it. Maybe my faulty memory, maybe bad search criteria.

The first video is a beautiful example of a skilled musician making optimum use of a limited instrument, IMHO.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2726236
04/03/18 08:50 AM
04/03/18 08:50 AM
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Thank you!
I think i'd be ok with just this one..the electric piano sounds..!

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2726561
04/04/18 05:22 PM
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Then it's a decent purchase. It looks like a toy, but it's got nice sounds.


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
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Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2727001
04/06/18 02:30 PM
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I launched these for Yamaha back in 2015. Great Rhodes sound and effects, glitched s little when playing from the keyboard but not over midi (velocity mapping sometimes got a bit out of control when playing the ep’s hard). I did several reface vids for absolute music and GAK. Great fro the odd bit of noodling or as a tone module


Steve, Retail channel /artist manager for CUK Audio, distributors of Dexibell pianos, dBTechnologies PA, HEDD monitors, ADK mics and many more pro brands in the UK & Ire. Studio producer, programmer & keys player - Here to help!
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743124
06/08/18 08:04 PM
06/08/18 08:04 PM
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Hi.
I am thinking about Reface CP for travelling and to amplify by portable speaker Bose Soundlink mini 2.
Just one doubt - Plugging Bose speaker to my Roland FP 30, I have noticeable latency. Will I have latency as well, plugging Bose to the Reface CP?


Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Rychubil] #2743162
06/09/18 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rychubil
Hi.
I am thinking about Reface CP for travelling and to amplify by portable speaker Bose Soundlink mini 2.
Just one doubt - Plugging Bose speaker to my Roland FP 30, I have noticeable latency. Will I have latency as well, plugging Bose to the Reface CP?


Yes, you will have noticeable latency if you stream the audio wirelessly via Bluetooth. This will happen with all Bluetooth speakers/headphones using BT 4.x. Even the latest version of BT, version 5, was mainly about improving transmission speed, not audio latency. We have to wait for a new BT specification and new hardware.

Anyway, if you use an audio cable connect to 3.5mm aux input of the Soundlink you should experience no latency. Edit: this seems to be wrong. The are reports about the Bose Soundlink mini 2 introducing latency due to DSP even when connected via cable.

Last edited by arc7urus; 06/09/18 04:35 AM.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743167
06/09/18 04:38 AM
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Bose sound link mini ii is Bluetooth, isn't it? You will always get long latency with Bluetooth (unless they develop a pro standard). But speakers like that, while extremely useful just for listening,, is virtually useless for playing music or any other time-critical application.

Edit: I've just noticed you said 'plugging into Bose speakers'. Are you using the jack cable link? In that case I don't know why you'd have latency unless it's DSP inside the speaker......


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: toddy] #2743173
06/09/18 05:29 AM
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Thanks for responses guys.
First of all, little correct - using my Bose, I use a cable only and latency issue always.
Ok, if this kind of speaker is not useful for playing, which portable speakers do you recommend for playing? The most important - small size.


Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743194
06/09/18 08:30 AM
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Seems most speakers of the size and type you're after are Bluetooth. However, the ones below are quite small and there are hundreds of offers of this type. Not quite as small as the Bose Soundlink Mini II, which I have, and really recommend for anything except playing music.

I can't give a definite personal recommendation, but there are plenty of options from known brands such as Logitech and Polk.

https://www.amazon.com/Dual-Electro...1&sr=1-3&keywords=Wired+speakers

Last edited by toddy; 06/09/18 08:31 AM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743198
06/09/18 09:12 AM
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The smallest I've found that I've liked is the Klipsch KMC3. I've heard some good reports about the iLoud, which distorted too easily for me, but maybe mine was defective, since others seem to have had good experience with it. If you can do with less volume, the Altec IMT620 was nice, I preferred it to the newer IMT630. For tiny (and presumably not so much volume), I read a report of surprisingly good results with a JBL Charge 2.

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: anotherscott] #2743199
06/09/18 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
The smallest I've found that I've liked is the Klipsch KMC3. I've heard some good reports about the iLoud, which distorted too easily for me, but maybe mine was defective, since others seem to have had good experience with it. If you can do with less volume, the Altec IMT620 was nice, I preferred it to the newer IMT630. For tiny (and presumably not so much volume), I read a report of surprisingly good results with a JBL Charge 2.


Wouldn't there be similar latency problems to those mentioned in the OP with the Klipsch kmc33 and JBL charge?


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: toddy] #2743227
06/09/18 12:14 PM
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I had no problem with the KMC3, and the person using the JBL had no problem with it. Maybe their DSP latency is less due to the electronics they're using, or just because they don't do as much sonic manipulation as Bose...? There's also the possibility that something could have a small amount of latency that is enough to bother some people but not others. So I don't want to swear there's no latency to these others, just because some people have used them and not noticed any.

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: anotherscott] #2743260
06/09/18 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Maybe their DSP latency is less due to the electronics they're using, or just because they don't do as much sonic manipulation as Bose...?


I suspect that may well be the case - it's one of the things that make audiophiles despise Bose so much (and rarely have seen such venom outside the SJW / alt-right wars).

As far as I'm concerned, I'm perfectly happy for Bose to use all the DSP they want as long as it brings home the bacon. But that, along with Bluetooth makes these Bose speakers useless for music production/playing.

Let's hope the JBL and kmc3 are ok for latency - I'm assuming you're linking them up with solid cables (not BT), though.

Last edited by toddy; 06/09/18 04:33 PM.

Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: toddy] #2743268
06/09/18 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
[quote=anotherscott] I'm assuming you're linking them up with solid cables (not BT), though.
right

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743496
06/10/18 05:11 PM
06/10/18 05:11 PM
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I see, I will need speaker more like "amplifier" kind than "portable". In addition, most of these portable speakers are equipped on BT system which is completely useless for piano.
For now I found couple of quite small aplifiers (not small enough for me) but I am not sure they are well enough for piano Reface CP. Most of them are used by guitarists:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/roland_cube_lt_bk_cube_lite.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/roland_mobile_cube.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/roland_micro_cube_gx.htm
What do you think? These amps would be good enough for piano/EP sounds or you know something much better suited for piano/EP sounds especially smaller dimenssions?


Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743515
06/10/18 06:39 PM
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I tried the Mobile Cube once, it was awful. I think the stuff I mentioned is probably better than any of that Roland stuff. Look for something with woofers and tweeters as opposed to merely single "full range" speakers. Wattage figures don't tell you much, but when they differ by a factor of 10, that's probably significant. ;-) Look for something designed for full range music/PA use, not something designed for guitar, where wide/flat response isn't even a design goal.

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743610
06/11/18 09:35 AM
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I am a bit worry about using Bluetooth speakers which can to issue latency.
Any example of strictly music amplifier for keyboards (small dimensions) ?

Last edited by Rychubil; 06/11/18 09:37 AM.

Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743614
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Any bluetooth speaker is fine if it has a line input you can use, because then it bypasses the bluetooth function entirely anyway, so it's not doing any harm.

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: anotherscott] #2743617
06/11/18 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Any bluetooth speaker is fine if it has a line input you can use, because then it bypasses the bluetooth function entirely anyway, so it's not doing any harm.

If is really like you mention, why my Bose Soundlink mini 2 plugged by 3,5mm jack cable to the FP30 issue latency?


Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Rychubil] #2743619
06/11/18 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Rychubil
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Any bluetooth speaker is fine if it has a line input you can use, because then it bypasses the bluetooth function entirely anyway, so it's not doing any harm.

If is really like you mention, why my Bose Soundlink mini 2 plugged by 3,5mm jack cable to the FP30 issue latency?


This, as mentioned above, is possibly because of DSP - digital sound processing - in the Bose speaker, which may be more extreme and latency-causing than most other brands. But this is speculation.


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743654
06/11/18 01:16 PM
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Right. Any latency you're experiencing on the Bose when directly plugged in has nothing to do with bluetooth. I didn't mean to imply it's impossible to have latency on a speaker you directly connect to, as your experience is proving otherwise. I'm just saying the presence of bluetooth in a speaker is completely irrelevant if you're not actually using the speaker's wireless bluetooth function, and will not affect latency one way or the other.

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Rychubil] #2743661
06/11/18 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rychubil
. . .
Any example of strictly music amplifier for keyboards (small dimensions) ?


Four questions (sorry if they've been answered already):

1. Does it need to run from batteries or 12-volt power, or can it use 120/240 volt AC power?

2. Maximum size?

3. Maximum weight?

4. Maximum cost?

There is a trade-off, set by physics and engineering, not marketing:

. . . For good bass (low frequencies, with adequate volume to match the midrange frequencies),
. . . you must have a large loudspeaker.
. . . and you must have enough power to drive it.

More-or-less, the size and weight of a "small" loudspeaker (and amp) is set by the diameter of its largest driver ("woofer"), and the power of the amplifier. A Mackie SRM150 (8 pounds, 5" woofer, 150 watts, 8"x11"x7") is one point on that trade-off curve.

. . . Is that the kind of "small" you're looking for?

So decide where you want to set that trade-off, and you will get more-accurate recommendations.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Charles Cohen] #2743673
06/11/18 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Originally Posted by Rychubil
. . . 
Any example of strictly music amplifier for keyboards (small dimensions) ?


Four questions (sorry if they've been answered already):

1.  Does it need to run from batteries or 12-volt power, or can it use 120/240 volt AC power?

2.  Maximum size?

3.  Maximum weight?

4.  Maximum cost?‎

Thank you Charles Cohen.

1. Can be AC power, no problem. 

2. Maximum 10" 

3. Maximum 3 kilograms 

4. Roughly 150$‎

This Mackie SRM150 looks nice but too expensive and a bit too large.

Last edited by Rychubil; 06/11/18 03:26 PM.

Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Tor E Bekken] #2743674
06/11/18 03:33 PM
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I just bought a Reface CP last week. It was hard to find! I love the sounds it makes and there is a hidden acoustic piano sound. I love playing with the effects. I hooked it up to my 1000W powered speaker and that was fun too!


Marcus Valdes
Fayetteville, GA
Kawai RX-5, Kawai CA78
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: toddy] #2743675
06/11/18 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by Rychubil
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Any bluetooth speaker is fine if it has a line input you can use, because then it bypasses the bluetooth function entirely anyway, so it's not doing any harm.

If is really like you mention, why my Bose Soundlink mini 2 plugged by 3,5mm jack cable to the FP30 issue latency?


This, as mentioned above, is possibly because of DSP - digital sound processing - in the Bose speaker, which may be more extreme and latency-causing than most other brands. But this is speculation.


The DSP in these speakers is not speculation. This is from Bose's press release:press release
Quote
...digital signal processing optimizes the audio output for balanced sound at any listening level.


And from a review
Quote
Bose uses digital signal processing (DSP) to prevent distortion through the SoundLink Mini II's drivers. (...). At maximum volume, the speaker doesn't distort (thanks to the DSP), but the heavy thumping of the deep bass on this track turns into more of a tap. You'll still get a sense of strong low-end, but the DSP clearly alters the lows at high volumes to prevent distortion.


And there are several threads on Bose's forum and elsewhere about the latency using the aux input. This is not only about Bose's portable speakers but ti portable speakers in general. These models are designed to play streamed music where some latency is not an issue. The OP should be looking into proper studio monitors or speakers.

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Rychubil] #2743681
06/11/18 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Rychubil
. .
Thank you Charles Cohen.

1. Can be AC power, no problem. 

2. Maximum 10" 

3. Maximum 3 kilograms 

4. Roughly 150$‎

This Mackie SRM150 looks nice but too expensive and a bit too large.


There's a Behringer clone (more-or-less) of the Mackie SRM150 -- the Behringer D205D. It might suit your budget better, but it's the same size.

Here's the Sweetwater listing (with very favorable user reviews):

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B205D--behringer-eurolive-b205d

You might find one used -- Vancouver's Craiglist has one.

Several inches of "width" are used up by the control panel. It has functions you might not need. But the extra width might give the designers some additional space inside the case, for improving low-frequency response.

Musing:

I bought a Behringer KT108 "practice keyboard amp" a few years ago. It has an 8" woofer, but only 15 watts. It has very poor bass response, from a terrible open-back cabinet. It's a usable PA speaker for a very small room, but I never liked it, and don't recommend it. I think my next purchase was my EV ZXA1 (which I love, but it's not an answer for you).

I have a pair of Behringer MS40 "nearfield monitors" -- 20 watts per side, 4.75" woofers. If you could get _one_ of those, or a single speaker with similar specs, it might be OK. Buying the pair (all the electronics are in the right-hand cabinet) is expensive. You'd be better-off with the B205D.


Last edited by Charles Cohen; 06/11/18 04:13 PM.

. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: mivaldes] #2743713
06/11/18 05:56 PM
06/11/18 05:56 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 57
ottokeys Offline
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ottokeys  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 57
Originally Posted by mivaldes
I just bought a Reface CP last week. It was hard to find! I love the sounds it makes and there is a hidden acoustic piano sound. I love playing with the effects. I hooked it up to my 1000W powered speaker and that was fun too!


I've got one as well and really love it. There's a classical musician on Youtube named Nahre Sol who has recently been uploading compositions (often recorded live in parks, on beaches, etc) that she makes with her Reface CP:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8R8FRt1KcPiR-rtAflXmeg/videos

I don't yet have a normal-sized digital piano but when I get one I plan to immediately connect it to the CP via its MIDI to play on the larger keybed.

Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: Charles Cohen] #2743716
06/11/18 06:12 PM
06/11/18 06:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 212
Aberdeen, UK
R
Rychubil Offline
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Rychubil  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 212
Aberdeen, UK
Originally Posted by mivaldes
... and there is a hidden acoustic piano sound.

I know and this is true smile
https://m.youtube.com/results?q=reface+cp+hidden+piano&sm=1

arc7urus - thank you for precisely clarifying the subject. Now I am aware how portable speakers are and my Bose stay in my office room, plugged to my DAC Fiio X5.
Originally Posted by Charles Cohen

There's a Behringer clone (more-or-less) of the Mackie SRM150 -- the Behringer D205D.  ‎

This price looks better but now I think which difference would be between this kind of speaker like Behringer D205D and one single monitor in this same price range? ‎

P.S.
Originally Posted by ottokeys
[quote=mivaldes]There's a classical musician on Youtube named Nahre Sol who has recently been uploading compositions (often recorded live in parks, on beaches, etc) that she makes with her Reface CP:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8R8FRt1KcPiR-rtAflXmeg/videos

She's amazing. I discovered Reface CP just by her performances :)‎

Last edited by Rychubil; 06/11/18 06:21 PM.

Roland FP-30, PV - Compact Grand, Kurzweil PC361, Yamaha Reface CP, Roland CM-110, ATH-M50X, Roland Quad capture, Cornet Olds Ambasador, Trumpet Getzen Bravura 98B.
Re: yamaha reface cp, anyone? [Re: arc7urus] #2743725
06/11/18 06:36 PM
06/11/18 06:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,717
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anotherscott Offline
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anotherscott  Offline
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A

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,717
Originally Posted by arc7urus
[The DSP in these speakers is not speculation. This is from Bose's press release

The speculation is not that the Bose has DSP, we know it does. The speculation is that their implementation causes more latency than other speakers, even other speakers with DSP.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
[ there are several threads on Bose's forum and elsewhere about the latency using the aux input. This is not only about Bose's portable speakers but ti portable speakers in general. These models are designed to play streamed music where some latency is not an issue. The OP should be looking into proper studio monitors or speakers.

But you cannot extrapolate from that that any speaker with DSP has latency. The QSC K8.2 (a "proper" PA speaker) has DSP for example, and no noticeable latency. I did not notice any latency in the small Kliipsch I mentioned. I would not assume that *just* because a speaker is sold for streaming music (as the Klipsch is), that it necessarily must have latency at its line input.


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