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aural quality of tempered intervals #2743244
06/09/18 04:02 PM
06/09/18 04:02 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 58
italy
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scanderbeg Offline OP
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scanderbeg  Offline OP
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italy
It's been while since i gave up my yamaha pt100 tuner and began to study to tune by ear
I've been adviced not to hear only beats but also the "colour" or "aural quality" of tempered intervals.
apart from temperament sequence i may use to gain the scale from f3 to f4, it seems (sounds) to me that the fifth and the fourth have all the same colour, while the thirds and the sixth, as they proceed with their progressive beat rates have a infinitesimal more "open" or "bright" colour.....

Is it just my personal sensation?


where there is a will, there is a path
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Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743249
06/09/18 04:38 PM
06/09/18 04:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,886
Michigan
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kpembrook Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by scanderbeg
It's been while since i gave up my yamaha pt100 tuner and began to study to tune by ear
I've been adviced not to hear only beats but also the "colour" or "aural quality" of tempered intervals.
apart from temperament sequence i may use to gain the scale from f3 to f4, it seems (sounds) to me that the fifth and the fourth have all the same colour, while the thirds and the sixth, as they proceed with their progressive beat rates have a infinitesimal more "open" or "bright" colour.....

Is it just my personal sensation?



It's all just terminology. As long as you can perceive the sounds and discern the differences and have a way of explaining it to yourself, you'll do fine.

In regard to this topic, I most appreciate Capleton's term, "soundscape" to describe the totality of what is going on -- which has yet to be fully detected -- much less defined by -- mechanical devices.

As you begin to start to listen (as in paying attention) your brain will form new neural pathways that increase your ability to discriminate what you need to deal with -- and what you can't. Kind of like the ideal of self-writing, self-updating software -- now available in the present at a brain near you.

Congratulations on developing your aural tuning skills!



Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743253
06/09/18 04:58 PM
06/09/18 04:58 PM
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Posts: 58
italy
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scanderbeg Offline OP
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thank you Kpembrook...

i'm currently reading mr. Capleton "theory and practice of piano tuning", i think it is awesome.


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743311
06/09/18 10:52 PM
06/09/18 10:52 PM
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Posts: 1,886
Michigan
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kpembrook Offline
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Originally Posted by scanderbeg
thank you Kpembrook...

i'm currently reading mr. Capleton "theory and practice of piano tuning", i think it is awesome.


Yup. I have it here on the shelf above my desk. It's definitely a step or more at a higher level than anyone else has written.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
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Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: kpembrook] #2743313
06/09/18 11:07 PM
06/09/18 11:07 PM
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Michigan
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kpembrook Offline
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My comment about new neural pathways developing as a person listens is from research that Capleton did together with a medical research team in England. They compared the brains of normal people to aural tuners by running individuals from both populations into an MRI and mapping the differences. (My wife says she already knew that tuners brains were differnet!)


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743338
06/10/18 02:52 AM
06/10/18 02:52 AM
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scanderbeg Offline OP
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wives claim they know always better than husbands.....


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743419
06/10/18 12:24 PM
06/10/18 12:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 245
Upper Middle Tennessee
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Bellyman Offline
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Developing aural skills can be challenging on poorly scaled instruments. But I am thankful to have worked in a large store for a while where there were lots and lots of floor tunings to be done. It gave me a lot of time to spend building temperaments and working out stretch that I liked on pianos all the way from spinets to 9' grands.

Yes, when it starts to "click", there is something that just happens in the brain. I have no idea how a person would actually explain it. Glad it's "clicked" for you! smile

Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743426
06/10/18 01:16 PM
06/10/18 01:16 PM
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Posts: 58
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scanderbeg Offline OP
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italy
i'm practising in a firm that imports pianos from japan and them sell them, after regulation, hammers filing and voicing and then tuning, to major dealers in the north of italy.
I'm only concerned with little time i have to practise aural tuning, since there is a lot of noise!!!

but it's really so fascinating to create the temperament and the whole compass of compound octaves, fifths and thirds listening to what the piano is telling me!


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743523
06/10/18 08:17 PM
06/10/18 08:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,530
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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That's why we aural tuners love it.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743534
06/10/18 09:44 PM
06/10/18 09:44 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 472
Rockville, MD
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Rockville, MD
Originally Posted by scanderbeg
It's been while since i gave up my yamaha pt100 tuner and began to study to tune by ear I've been adviced not to hear only beats but also the "colour" or "aural quality" of tempered intervals.apart from temperament sequence i may use to gain the scale from f3 to f4, it seems (sounds) to me that the fifth and the fourth have all the same colour, while the thirds and the sixth, as they proceed with their progressive beat rates have a infinitesimal more "open" or "bright" colour.....

Is it just my personal sensation?

What you say makes sense to me. From what you write, you perceive the successively faster beating intervals of the ascending 3rds & 6ths to be brighter as the beat rates increase. Some keys, even in "equal temperament", sound brighter to me than others, e.g., B vs. Bb. I haven't done the math, so I can't vouch for the beat rates, just the difference in tonal "color" to my hearing.

That you write in a later post...
Originally Posted by scanderbeg
but it's really so fascinating to create the temperament and the whole compass of compound octaves, fifths and thirds listening to what the piano is telling me!
speaks well of piano tuning as your Vocation.

All best wishes to you as you master the art and craft involved.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743571
06/11/18 03:05 AM
06/11/18 03:05 AM
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Posts: 58
italy
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scanderbeg Offline OP
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scanderbeg  Offline OP
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italy
thank you really much, Seeker


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743607
06/11/18 09:52 AM
06/11/18 09:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,530
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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P W Grey  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
The leverage difference between naturals and sharps often accounts for a "perceived" color difference in ET. Add to this that naturals tend to get more activity, therefore tend to sound "brighter" too. It is not universal though.

The key of D flat is often pointed to as being a "standout" key and more musical. I believe that largely the reason for this is that at current concert pitch, the beat speeds of the 3rds and 6ths in this key, in the lower and tenor areas, strongly resembles the speed of vibrato in good singer's voices. Therefore the perception that this key "sings" better than others.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743669
06/11/18 04:01 PM
06/11/18 04:01 PM
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Posts: 58
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scanderbeg Offline OP
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scanderbeg  Offline OP
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italy
maybe that's why a lot of aria from the operas are written in that key.... the second beatiful singing section of the chopin fantasia improptu n.66 is in d flat too and many nocturnes with utmost liricysm.
often when i have played piano with classical singers i met this tonality, that, apart from the colour, is also very easy to play on keyboard (most of all runs and double notes), it fits the shape of the hand


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: aural quality of tempered intervals [Re: scanderbeg] #2743842
06/12/18 09:24 AM
06/12/18 09:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,530
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
Yes, that too!

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)

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