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New Member. #2743239
06/09/18 03:11 PM
06/09/18 03:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
S
Sunnyside Offline OP
Junior Member
Sunnyside  Offline OP
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
Hi all,
Thanks for letting me into your forum.
My name is Frank Smith . Grew up in Ellesmere Port, having lessons from the age of 5 to 17 then joined the armed forces and moved to Faslane when I was 17 which was the last lesson I had.
Now, 36 years later, I want to start over and have forgotten most of what I had learned.
I have a question about Czerny 110 east and progressive exercises. Just how long should one spend practicing each piece. At the moment I'm just using them as sight reading exercises and general small bits of music to break up my main practicing. My goal is not to take an exam ever again. I just want to play easy music from sight to a reasonable level. My sight reading was alway terrible and after 36 years its seems even harder than I remember.
Thanks in advance for your insights.
Frank.
ps I might add I don't actually mind the exercises as its not all that I'm playing.

Last edited by Sunnyside; 06/09/18 03:12 PM.
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Re: New Member. [Re: Sunnyside] #2743241
06/09/18 03:41 PM
06/09/18 03:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,824
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,824
Originally Posted by Sunnyside
Hi all,
Thanks for letting me into your forum.
My name is Frank Smith . Grew up in Ellesmere Port, having lessons from the age of 5 to 17 then joined the armed forces and moved to Faslane when I was 17 which was the last lesson I had.
Now, 36 years later, I want to start over and have forgotten most of what I had learned.
I have a question about Czerny 110 east and progressive exercises. Just how long should one spend practicing each piece. At the moment I'm just using them as sight reading exercises and general small bits of music to break up my main practicing. My goal is not to take an exam ever again. I just want to play easy music from sight to a reasonable level. My sight reading was alway terrible and after 36 years its seems even harder than I remember.

Ah, I know Loch Lomond well (as you can see from my name grin), and I've been up Ben Lomond more times than I can remember, in all seasons, seen lots of ptarmigan etc. Though Ben Nevis still takes the biscuit.....

But enough about me.

With piano exercises, once you've got what you wanted from them, it's time to move on. Use them for sight-reading fodder, and sight-read through anything (easy or difficult) that takes your fancy - it's easy these days with IMSLP to get lots of sheet music by great composers for free. You can start with the Anna Magdalena Notebook and 2-Part Inventions, Beethoven's Bagatelles, Mozart's several sets of variations and Rondos, Chopin mazurkas etc, depending on what standard you're at. What grade did you reach in your exams?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: New Member. [Re: bennevis] #2743263
06/09/18 05:36 PM
06/09/18 05:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
S
Sunnyside Offline OP
Junior Member
Sunnyside  Offline OP
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
Hi thanks for the reply. Yes Loch LOmond is a very beautiful place. I own a large B&B and also do Classic VW camper hire so every hour seems to be taken these days but I get to see many many tourist throughout the year.
I did the JM RSM exams. The last one being when I was about 15. I cant remember if I did grade 8 or was preparing for it. Was learning 2 part inventions at the time.
I did play Beethoven's Moonlight sonata when I was about 11 in a concert and am re working that at the moment . I know all the major scales 2 octave by heart and working hard on the Harmonic minors atm .
Also plating "Easy play classic Rock and some stuff from the grade 4 syllabus to help kick start things. Been at it a month now but having issues with memory. As a kid I didn't need the music once learned. Now i have to use it all the time , not so much fully reading it but as a location crib directing me in the right direction.
I cant finish Moonlight without the music no matter how hard I try. However my goal , I suppose is just to be able to pick up some simple music and play it without rehearsing for hours.
I have 10 items I'm working on at the moments not including Czerny. I want to use his work for general reading health and just the pleasure as I practice but i'm not too keen on spending multiple ours per exercise to get it 100% .As I said no more exams for me again. my life in the forces has been full of exams now its time to enjoy.

Re: New Member. [Re: Sunnyside] #2743276
06/09/18 06:41 PM
06/09/18 06:41 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,315
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,315
Florida
Welcome Sunnyside, sounds like you have a nice jump on some of us adult beginners, good to have that background. Glad you're back to it - enjoy!


Boston 118 PE

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Re: New Member. [Re: Sunnyside] #2743298
06/09/18 08:53 PM
06/09/18 08:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,259
Australia
E
earlofmar Online content
3000 Post Club Member
earlofmar  Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,259
Australia
Welcome. Last time I was at Loch Lomond (walking the West Highland Way) I stayed at the Rowardennan Lodge Youth Hostel, next time I'll come play your piano (albeit badly).


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

13x[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: New Member. [Re: Sunnyside] #2743341
06/10/18 03:29 AM
06/10/18 03:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 327
Just outside London UK
akc42 Offline
Full Member
akc42  Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 327
Just outside London UK
@Sunnyside welcome. i only did grade 3 as a child, but stated back last September after a 56 year gap. I would say it took me about 2 months to get back to the level I was then, but (I think crucial) got myself a teacher after about a month, initially 1 hour every fortnight, but for the last 3 months 1 hour weekly. More importantly although I don't plan on taking exams I previously (quite easily) learnt and polished a ABRSM grade 5 syllabus piece ("Cool") and have been tackling for about a month Bach's Invention No 8 (which my teacher says is a grade 6 piece).

When I restarted I did initially play a few scales and some hannon - but after a month or so stopped building them into my practice specifically. That's not to say I dropped them completely, because I signed up for PIano Marvel (I have the necessary digital piano) and have done all the exercises in that to 100% up to the beginning of Level 6 (in both Method and Technique sections) and the Technique section in particular includes scales arpeggios and chord inversions. I originally signed up to this to improve my sight reading - and whilst it did improve a lot initially and I still take a test nearly every day - I feel I have plateaued somewhat and have started thinking about other ways to tackle that. The use of piano marvel is done independently from my teacher (although she is aware).

Although initially I was just choosing pieces I liked the sound of and wanted to learn (started with the Moonlight Sonata first movement), more recently my teacher has been directing me towards pieces that will help my technique and musicality - "Cool" was about complex jazz like rhythms and the Bach about hand independence.

Enjoy your restart back

Re: New Member. [Re: akc42] #2743344
06/10/18 03:52 AM
06/10/18 03:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
S
Sunnyside Offline OP
Junior Member
Sunnyside  Offline OP
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
Originally Posted by cmb13
Welcome Sunnyside, sounds like you have a nice jump on some of us adult beginners, good to have that background. Glad you're back to it - enjoy!

Thank you. I'm a bit frustrated on how much I have forgotten and how generally my memory is . Even my fingers are not in the best of shape. Years of military work and camper restoration has taken its toll including a few breakages:(

Originally Posted by earlofmar
Welcome. Last time I was at Loch Lomond (walking the West Highland Way) I stayed at the Rowardennan Lodge Youth Hostel, next time I'll come play your piano (albeit badly).

you will be very welcome. Google my user name as its the B&B name also. As to my Piano, any time.

Originally Posted by akc42
@Sunnyside welcome. i only did grade 3 as a child, but stated back last September after a 56 year gap. I would say it took me about 2 months to get back to the level I was then, but (I think crucial) got myself a teacher after about a month, initially 1 hour every fortnight, but for the last 3 months 1 hour weekly. More importantly although I don't plan on taking exams I previously (quite easily) learnt and polished a ABRSM grade 5 syllabus piece ("Cool") and have been tackling for about a month Bach's Invention No 8 (which my teacher says is a grade 6 piece).

When I restarted I did initially play a few scales and some hannon - but after a month or so stopped building them into my practice specifically. That's not to say I dropped them completely, because I signed up for PIano Marvel (I have the necessary digital piano) and have done all the exercises in that to 100% up to the beginning of Level 6 (in both Method and Technique sections) and the Technique section in particular includes scales arpeggios and chord inversions. I originally signed up to this to improve my sight reading - and whilst it did improve a lot initially and I still take a test nearly every day - I feel I have plateaued somewhat and have started thinking about other ways to tackle that. The use of piano marvel is done independently from my teacher (although she is aware).

Although initially I was just choosing pieces I liked the sound of and wanted to learn (started with the Moonlight Sonata first movement), more recently my teacher has been directing me towards pieces that will help my technique and musicality - "Cool" was about complex jazz like rhythms and the Bach about hand independence.

Enjoy your restart back


Nice reply, thanks. I suppose after just a month I'm wanting to run again before relearning to walk. My biggest worry is memory, i just can't get to the end of any piece without music. I even screw up Bach's Minuet in G. This is probably one of the oldest pieces I have played. IIRC I was probably 6 or 7 when I played this and without music......now no chance. My grey cells must be damaged with age smile

I'm not playing Bar by Bar like when I was young. Mainly because I want to push my reading and hand abilities as far as possible in a limited time so I have 10 items on the go atm. I just play then 2 or 3 times in a row from start to finish , refining hard areas then move on to the next. Same with Czerny. It means I'm prone to picking up minor errors and not correcting and then reinforcing these errors each time I play. However I can live with that as all I want ( my goal if you like) is to be able to pick up average music and play along with perhaps a friend or just for fun.
However , advice is a precious commodity and I'm always willing to learn from others.

Re: New Member. [Re: Sunnyside] #2743347
06/10/18 04:51 AM
06/10/18 04:51 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,824
B
bennevis Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 10,824
Originally Posted by Sunnyside
I suppose after just a month I'm wanting to run again before relearning to walk. My biggest worry is memory, i just can't get to the end of any piece without music. I even screw up Bach's Minuet in G. This is probably one of the oldest pieces I have played. IIRC I was probably 6 or 7 when I played this and without music......now no chance.


You're worrying about not being able to play Bach from memory after one month of restarting?

I'd give it six months of regular daily practice before thinking your memory isn't what it was when you were ten. I never could play anything complete from memory even at Grade 8, and only started memorising pieces (with great difficulty) one year after I restarted eight years ago, when I bought my first piano. Quite frankly, I wouldn't have bothered memorising at all if it weren't for the fact that I started performing for audiences, and I had no page-turner: as I've written elsewhere, it takes me at least five times as long to learn a piece and play it from memory as it does to learn it and play from the score with the same fluency.

After all, it's much better to be able to play a lot of stuff fairly easily from the music, than to be able to play one or two pieces from memory and nothing else. (Have a look at the Piano Teachers Forum and you'll see lots of threads about students who can hardly read music and have to learn by rote, and are basically one-trick ponies).

In other words, I think you'd be much better off just enjoying the process of regaining your previous skills by playing the stuff you like - from the music - rather than worrying about not being able to play old pieces from start to finish from memory. In a few months' time, you'd be pleasantly surprised at what you've achieved......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: New Member. [Re: bennevis] #2743348
06/10/18 05:06 AM
06/10/18 05:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
S
Sunnyside Offline OP
Junior Member
Sunnyside  Offline OP
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
Excellent advice thanks. When young I suppose i was a one horse pony too. Would spend weeks learning "Bar By Bar". and couldn't play much else except scales etc.
Page tuning is also a issue atm as it also causes me a memory blot. I'm getting better I suppose my "RAM" is starting to remember the first bar of the next page but even then if I take too long tuning the page I'm derailed.

Last edited by Sunnyside; 06/10/18 05:07 AM.
Re: New Member. [Re: Sunnyside] #2743357
06/10/18 06:57 AM
06/10/18 06:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 349
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Full Member
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 349
Originally Posted by Sunnyside
Page tuning is also a issue atm as it also causes me a memory blot. I'm getting better I suppose my "RAM" is starting to remember the first bar of the next page but even then if I take too long tuning the page I'm derailed.

You might consider using an auto page turning app that turns the pages for you by listening to what you are playing. Some even will comment on your playing. I know of Tido, Tonara, Autoflip. Not so long ago, I saw a video interview of a concert pianist where he talked about still a fourth automated page turning app but I didn't pay attention to the name. Seems like there are many different ones that will listen to what you play and turn the page when appropriate.

Here are some descriptions:



Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 06/10/18 06:59 AM.

across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: New Member. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2743374
06/10/18 09:28 AM
06/10/18 09:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 849
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
500 Post Club Member
NobleHouse  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 849
In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Sunnyside
Page tuning is also a issue atm as it also causes me a memory blot. I'm getting better I suppose my "RAM" is starting to remember the first bar of the next page but even then if I take too long tuning the page I'm derailed.

You might consider using an auto page turning app that turns the pages for you by listening to what you are playing. Some even will comment on your playing. I know of Tido, Tonara, Autoflip. Not so long ago, I saw a video interview of a concert pianist where he talked about still a fourth automated page turning app but I didn't pay attention to the name. Seems like there are many different ones that will listen to what you play and turn the page when appropriate.




Thanks Tyrone. I was not aware of these 3 devices.

Re: New Member. [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2743463
06/10/18 03:20 PM
06/10/18 03:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
S
Sunnyside Offline OP
Junior Member
Sunnyside  Offline OP
Junior Member
S
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15
Loch Lomond Scotland
Thanks, Had a quick read and seems to be a neat idea. I will get a better look at it later.:)


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