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A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? #2743063
06/08/18 03:19 PM
06/08/18 03:19 PM
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Foster City, CA, US
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Ken Iisaka Offline OP
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I've been on the market for a piano for a while, and I came across this:

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/6610914528.html

I am incredulous that such a vastly inflated value would be stated... shamelessly!

Looking around, there are plenty of SF-10s in the teens.

I've encountered hopelessly optimistic pricing, but this is bordering on insanity!

Oh, yeah, there was a million dollar grand piano on craigslist not long ago as well, now 100k... And there are pianos which seem to stay on the market for months, if not years.

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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743064
06/08/18 03:29 PM
06/08/18 03:29 PM
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Hi Ken
According to the ad, the piano was recently appraised. My guess then is that the owners are relying on the appraised value to set the sales price; Actually feel quite sorry for them if this is the case because they are in for a rude awakening of the value. Shame on the appraiser!


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
" I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743065
06/08/18 03:29 PM
06/08/18 03:29 PM
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Will it sell? That is the $64,000 question!

There are appraisals for insurance purposes, which are often higher than what one would pay if one were buying the same item when it became available, not when it needs to be replaced.


Semipro Tech
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: BDB] #2743075
06/08/18 03:47 PM
06/08/18 03:47 PM
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Foster City, CA, US
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Ken Iisaka Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BDB
Will it sell? That is the $64,000 question!

There are appraisals for insurance purposes, which are often higher than what one would pay if one were buying the same item when it became available, not when it needs to be replaced.


Sure, but a new Baldwin SF-10, if you can find one, isn't $118k, either! That's even more than a new Steinway B!!!

I feel sorry for the seller if s/he was being misled.

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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743077
06/08/18 03:51 PM
06/08/18 03:51 PM
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I see several restorers and rebuilders post the retail value of say a new instrument on their websites. Living Pianos does this and I think Chupps does this as well. The list they price of a "brand new" Steinway or Mason Hamlin of that model, and then te price of their rebuild. That's probably what they're basing the price on.

Right now, Living Pianos has a Steinway D (1967) listed at $73,599 but the $164,100 (new) price is marked out. A M&H CC2 for $43,775 with the $139,302 (new) price marked out. He has a Baldwin SD (1932) for $27,579 with $103,979 marked out.

Checking the official Baldwin sight, the SD10 is listed @ $103,500 and the SF10 @ $76,500. All of the classic Baldwin models are still listed on their website along side the new BP models. But do they still make them? Maybe Steve Cohen will chime in. He seems to be the PW contributor who chimes in with official new about the current Baldwins.

Last edited by GC13; 06/08/18 03:52 PM.
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: BDB] #2743078
06/08/18 03:52 PM
06/08/18 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
Will it sell? That is the $64,000 question!


thumb ha


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: GC13] #2743083
06/08/18 04:05 PM
06/08/18 04:05 PM
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Foster City, CA, US
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Ken Iisaka Offline OP
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Originally Posted by GC13
I see several restorers and rebuilders post the retail value of say a new instrument on their websites. Living Pianos does this and I think Chupps does this as well. The list they price of a "brand new" Steinway or Mason Hamlin of that model, and then te price of their rebuild. That's probably what they're basing the price on.

Right now, Living Pianos has a Steinway D (1967) listed at $73,599 but the $164,100 (new) price is marked out. A M&H CC2 for $43,775 with the $139,302 (new) price marked out. He has a Baldwin SD (1932) for $27,579 with $103,979 marked out.

Checking the official Baldwin sight, the SD10 is listed @ $103,500 and the SF10 @ $76,500. All of the classic Baldwin models are still listed on their website along side the new BP models. But do they still make them? Maybe Steve Cohen will chime in. He seems to be the PW contributor who chimes in with official new about the current Baldwins.


I thinks that's a fair practice, but to state that a brand new SF is $118k is dishonest. Well, some of the MSRPs are so over-inflated, too...

Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: GC13] #2743085
06/08/18 04:09 PM
06/08/18 04:09 PM
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Probably the single best thing that could happen for "American" Baldwins (or American jobs producing Baldwins) is if the Baldwin name gets enough traction in China that Chinese consumers would be willing to pay a premium for American made Baldwins. I don't know the probability of that happening, of course, but I understand that the most recent Baldwins produced in China are nice pianos, so it's certainly feasible. If demand were sufficient enough in China to justify American production, then perhaps we'd see them sold here as well. In the meantime, and perhaps even if it happens, I understand that the Chinese made Baldwins are worth checking out.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743087
06/08/18 04:15 PM
06/08/18 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
Originally Posted by GC13
I see several restorers and rebuilders post the retail value of say a new instrument on their websites. Living Pianos does this and I think Chupps does this as well. The list they price of a "brand new" Steinway or Mason Hamlin of that model, and then te price of their rebuild. That's probably what they're basing the price on.

Right now, Living Pianos has a Steinway D (1967) listed at $73,599 but the $164,100 (new) price is marked out. A M&H CC2 for $43,775 with the $139,302 (new) price marked out. He has a Baldwin SD (1932) for $27,579 with $103,979 marked out.

Checking the official Baldwin sight, the SD10 is listed @ $103,500 and the SF10 @ $76,500. All of the classic Baldwin models are still listed on their website along side the new BP models. But do they still make them? Maybe Steve Cohen will chime in. He seems to be the PW contributor who chimes in with official new about the current Baldwins.


I thinks that's a fair practice, but to state that a brand new SF is $118k is dishonest. Well, some of the MSRPs are so over-inflated, too...

I agree that it's an honest practice, sort of (comparing a 1932 price to a brand new price isn't necessarily apples-to-oranges, but sort of oranges-to-tangerines).

But listing an MSRP on piano that for all intents and purposes hasn't been produced in ten years is a little disingenuous (IMO). Of course, they're listed on Baldwin's website (last I checked), so I'm not really sure who to point the finger at.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Retsacnal] #2743096
06/08/18 05:01 PM
06/08/18 05:01 PM
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Foster City, CA, US
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Ken Iisaka Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Retsacnal

I agree that it's an honest practice, sort of (comparing a 1932 price to a brand new price isn't necessarily apples-to-oranges, but sort of oranges-to-tangerines).


Well, given how pianos evolved slowly between 1880 and 1980, I don't think it's unfair to compare a rebuilt one to a new one. I don't know anything about the pianos offered at Living Pianos, but it's not like comparing a rebuilt Ford Model T to today's Ford model. When determining the value of a Steinway, the condition matters more than the age.

On the other hand, with manufacturers which have made improvements more quickly, there is an argument that they end up depreciating more quickly, because new ones are so much better. I think that describes the market for top-quality Asian pianos and some prominent European brands.

Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743116
06/08/18 07:40 PM
06/08/18 07:40 PM
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Price aside, I shudder significantly whenever I see what I see in the second picture!

Regards,


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: BruceD] #2743134
06/08/18 11:04 PM
06/08/18 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Price aside, I shudder significantly whenever I see what I see in the second picture!
Moi aussi. smile I just emailed the seller and provided a link to a reputable dealer's website where a 1998 Sf-10 in excellent condition is/was being offered for $14,900.. Should have mentioned the lid thing as well.


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743182
06/09/18 08:25 AM
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It makes me sad to think they paid for an appraisal that shows that little understanding of piano pricing in the current market.


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: terminaldegree] #2743200
06/09/18 10:21 AM
06/09/18 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
It makes me sad to think they paid for an appraisal that shows that little understanding of piano pricing in the current market.

Seems like this was a "complimentary appraisal." This from the appraiser's website....

"Your piano has value! Many are surprised to find what their pianos are worth. We provide a complimentary appraisal for your piano. This document can ensure that your piano is properly protected by insurance or can be a valuable tool when it comes time to sell or donate your piano."

The "seller" in this instance appears to be a real estate company and (per the photos) the piano is apparently sitting in an empty house.

Last edited by Carey; 06/09/18 10:28 AM.

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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743206
06/09/18 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
Originally Posted by Retsacnal

I agree that it's an honest practice, sort of (comparing a 1932 price to a brand new price isn't necessarily apples-to-oranges, but sort of oranges-to-tangerines).


Well, given how pianos evolved slowly between 1880 and 1980, I don't think it's unfair to compare a rebuilt one to a new one. I don't know anything about the pianos offered at Living Pianos, but it's not like comparing a rebuilt Ford Model T to today's Ford model.

It depends on how the Model T was rebuilt. There is such a thing as a restomod, where the car is rebuilt with modern design and components so that it performs like a modern car, but still has the quaint exterior design of a Model T. That wouldn't be much different from a completely remanufactured artcase Steinway B from say 1910 in which everything except the case was replaced. A case could be made that such a rebuilt piano could perform as well as any Shigeru, VC Bodendorfer, Yamaha CF. The comparison would depend on the design priorities of the rebuilt piano, were they going for a modern scale design or just improving on the original? Just a thought!

Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743215
06/09/18 11:39 AM
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The seller will eventually find out that the appraisal was worthless.

Pwg


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743252
06/09/18 04:56 PM
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Quote
It makes me sad to think they paid for an appraisal that shows that little understanding of piano pricing in the current market.


Or interest. Once they get paid, these guys just seem to disappear. Unfortunately many tuners are among them. People that may be doing good work but have absolutely no understanding about current market conditions. Let alone "price" Perhaps want to make the owner "feel good"
Self-serving and not exactly very helpful... frown

Norbert


Last edited by Norbert; 06/09/18 05:04 PM.

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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743267
06/09/18 05:44 PM
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I'm curious why they mention this 32 year old piano is in excellent condition but give no reason why. Was it rebuilt? How was it maintained through the years, and how often was it played. Some people have a piano handed down to them and think because it was seldom played it is in excellent condition and when it is 32 years old that couldn't be further from the truth.

Their ad is very poorly written or deceiving having left this basic information out and asking such a steep price. The pictures are too dark and show very little of the inside. It looks like there aren't any special veneers on the inside. They don't mention if the keys are plastic or ivory so I assume they are plastic. Ivory was banned after 1989 but I'm not sure when Baldwin quit using it. And there is that very nasty scratch they didn't bother fixing? Why? They could have at least filled the white part of it in with black magic marker so it wasn't so noticeable.

A person came to look at a house I was selling and saw my piano and said "what a wonderful piece of furniture" to which I replied thank you but it isn't furniture at all because it is a musical instrument!

Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 06/09/18 05:54 PM.

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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Lakeviewsteve] #2743286
06/09/18 07:58 PM
06/09/18 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Lakeviewsteve
]...\
A person came to look at a house I was selling and saw my piano and said "what a wonderful piece of furniture" to which I replied thank you but it isn't furniture at all because it is a musical instrument!

Steve


Reminds of the time a serviceman came into my living room, saw my 6'3" Estonia and asked: "Do you play the piano?"

Duh!

Cheers!


BruceD
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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743289
06/09/18 08:15 PM
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I believe both the seller and appraiser are clueless. They are waiting for some idiot with more money than brains to hand them $64k, or something close to it. Ain't gonna happen.

Or perhaps they are playing games with the insurance company, plan to burn the house down and use this as as evidence that they were trying to sell it at the "appraised" value...but oops...now it's destroyed. $64k please.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 06/09/18 08:16 PM.

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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743293
06/09/18 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
Originally Posted by Retsacnal

I agree that it's an honest practice, sort of (comparing a 1932 price to a brand new price isn't necessarily apples-to-oranges, but sort of oranges-to-tangerines).


Well, given how pianos evolved slowly between 1880 and 1980, I don't think it's unfair to compare a rebuilt one to a new one. I don't know anything about the pianos offered at Living Pianos, but it's not like comparing a rebuilt Ford Model T to today's Ford model. When determining the value of a Steinway, the condition matters more than the age.

Yeah, I think it's legit to compare to new. It's just that you can't really get an SF-10 new any more.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743294
06/09/18 08:43 PM
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The real estate connection on the appraisal is odd.

Perhaps the house is for sale, and they're trying to give the impression that a piano "left behind" or otherwise thrown in to the sale is worth much more than it really is.

It is a preposterously high appraisal.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743296
06/09/18 08:49 PM
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However, given that how few people actually know much about pianos and their value, the criticisms of this ad seem overdone to me.


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743297
06/09/18 08:52 PM
06/09/18 08:52 PM
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If this piano is a top quality performer, in my mind the comparable replacement is a fully rebuilt Steinway B, M&H BB, or SF-10. These will be from about $45 to $65K. One can find mediocre ones for less, but if the owner expects to replace with one of similar performance, that is what they would expect to pay.

The piano does have significant enough damage to the case to need a specific markdown for that, around $3.5K. So in my book maximum replacement value would be $50K.


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743300
06/09/18 09:06 PM
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I do not see anything that is necessarily case damage, but there is a reflection that looks like it might be.


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743322
06/10/18 12:56 AM
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I see some dings, but not gouges or scratches either.

Perhaps for an appraisal it's not too high (they tend to be high). I was thinking more of the asking price on Craigslist, which I think is high by 300 or 400%.

In my neck of the woods, I tend to see SF-10s lists for about 15k, give or take.


if you're content with A V E R A G E . . . then just do what everyone else does
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: BDB] #2743329
06/10/18 01:59 AM
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look in image 5 of 6, there is a couple of obvious deep marks.


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Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2743330
06/10/18 02:02 AM
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Yes, I guess so. I have someone who should be able to fix those.


Semipro Tech
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743335
06/10/18 02:31 AM
06/10/18 02:31 AM
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PhilipInChina Offline
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PhilipInChina  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,534
Bulgaria
According to a poster above, this is a complimentary appraisal.

The appraisal says that they have "carefully examined" the piano in question. How can that be unless they are running at a huge loss? It would involve travelling to the site and spending time doing the appraisal.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
Re: A 1986 Baldwin SF for $64,000!?!?!? [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2743336
06/10/18 02:34 AM
06/10/18 02:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,534
Bulgaria
PhilipInChina Offline
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PhilipInChina  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,534
Bulgaria
I think I have answered my own question. From their website it appears that they issue an appraisal as part of their servicing.


Currently working towards "Twinkle twinkle little star"
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