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Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743228
06/09/18 01:26 PM
06/09/18 01:26 PM
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Old Hangtown California
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Gene Nelson Offline
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Well, there is actually a very effective short cut - even more than one:
Its called the PTG and the many people who contribute to Journal articles as well as their printed literature and conventions.
And then there is the very personal coaching and mentoring. It usually developes based on relationships that happen at the chapter level.
I had the good fortune of being mentored at a university with a multitude of practice room pianos as well as several performance pianos as well as the challenge of a few difficult professors of music.


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Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743248
06/09/18 04:33 PM
06/09/18 04:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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David,

I remember reading that article, or a reference to it in the PTJournal. I wonder though if the same changes take place for those dependent on an electronic device. I somehow think not.

It boggles my mind that anyone can master "The Knowledge", but they do!

Amazing!

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 06/09/18 04:34 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743279
06/09/18 06:58 PM
06/09/18 06:58 PM
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Posts: 1,522
Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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Yes, I think the study was specific to aural tuners. Richard Roberts was part of it and I recall him saying so in response to a question somewhere in his blog. You can see a fascinating short film about Richard's interesting lifestyle experiment, a third of the way down this page http://www.piano-tuning.co.uk/blog/
Richard got fed up with the cost of accommodation in London, and decided to live with no fixed abode, sleeping outdoors. His blog, copiously illustrated with photos makes very interesting reading and I think it should be published as a book, but RIchard isn't interested to pursue that.

Last edited by David Boyce; 06/09/18 07:05 PM.
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: David Boyce] #2743930
06/12/18 04:00 PM
06/12/18 04:00 PM
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Automata Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Bellyman, you observe
Quote
Where you leave the tension on the non-speaking parts of the strings is important, and I'm not sure how easy that is to teach.


Indeed. The original post asks "How to using the tuning hammer so that the tuning is durable".

This thread now has lots of excellent comments about tension in speaking and non-speaking lengths, setting the pin, etc.

But no-one has described how to use the tuning lever, in terms of the physical movements involved. It probably isn't possible to do so.


Although the answers are very useful, my question was how to use the hammer because I had read that after tuning a string you have to make a torsion movement of to fix the position of the pin

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Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743955
06/12/18 05:35 PM
06/12/18 05:35 PM
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Posts: 1,546
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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What I do for every string after moving the pin foot to the new position, and getting the right pitch by hammer movements, is to gently push or bump on the lever gently clockwise and anticlockwise while repeatedly playing on the note. If the string renders well you should get the pitch to moan slightly sharp or flat and then spring back when you release the pressure. If the string does not render well the pitch may remain stable but be able to hold with the changes of pressure. The aim of doing this is to ensure that the string sections are not so out of equilibrium that a sudden change is likely. If the pitch moves permanently with these movements then the pin foot needs to be repositioned to a more balanced position an tuned again.

An example of a bad string/pin setting I had the other day was a string that changed immediately when I placed the lever on the pin. In this case there was a large difference between speaking length and non-speaking length tension and so the string easily slipped across the pressure bar. If you tune a string by simply pulling to pitch and then removing the lever you are likely to create a situation like this. Most beginners probably tune most strings like this and that is why their tunings are unstable.


Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743966
06/12/18 07:10 PM
06/12/18 07:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,058
Georgia, USA
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
An example of a bad string/pin setting I had the other day was a string that changed immediately when I placed the lever on the pin. In this case there was a large difference between speaking length and non-speaking length tension and so the string easily slipped across the pressure bar. If you tune a string by simply pulling to pitch and then removing the lever you are likely to create a situation like this. Most beginners probably tune most strings like this and that is why their tunings are unstable.

Chris, I don't mean to come into this discussion here with a bad attitude, but I played a piano not too long ago that had been tuned just a few hours earlier, by an RPT with 30 years of experience, and there were some unisons already slightly out of tune. So, it is not just beginners that this can happen to. I don't hold it against the guy or think less of him, but he was a professional who was paid the going rate to tune the piano for a program that evening where I was going to play the piano as part of the program. In fact, I requested that the custodians of the piano call the local RPT and have the piano tuned for that particular performance.

Of course, I know from experience that it is not an easy job to tune with good tuning stability, but I'm just saying...

Just my .02.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2744002
06/12/18 10:04 PM
06/12/18 10:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,595
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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New Hampshire
There are some pianos that are simply virtually impossible to tune stable due to their design. I just had one of these yesterday (Story & Clark grand). Drove me nuts! Move the pin...move the pin...move the pin...nothing happens...then tiny little move and pow!...the stupid string moves a mile. Sorry, but this is a pain in the butt and things were not PERFECT when done. I am not going to kill myself trying to wrestle with bad design. I'll do the best I can, and adapt my technique to do my best...but it ain't going to be ideal.

Sometimes it's like that.

Sometimes he/she is having a bad day. Sometimes he/she just had fight with a spouse. Sometimes he/she has some other "problem"...

Yes, probably should have mentioned it to them so as to have opportunity to fix it. Might not be a bad idea.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2744431
06/14/18 02:48 PM
06/14/18 02:48 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 58
italy
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italy
Mr.GREY, it happens the same with my barock dx 800......no way to gain stability where it occurs.

What do you mean by bad design?the gauge of the pins, the pressure bar, the v bar?

Sorry for question, i'm a beginner and i'd like to learn....


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2744448
06/14/18 04:03 PM
06/14/18 04:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,595
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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New Hampshire
Too much friction due to angle of wire coming from agraffes up to string rest...then on to tuning pins. Also at capo bar.

Perhaps when brand new it wasn't too bad, but as things become set it is horrible to tune. My education helps a little, but does not solve the problem.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: P W Grey] #2744757
06/15/18 09:06 PM
06/15/18 09:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,780
USA
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Bob Offline
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
There are some pianos that are simply virtually impossible to tune stable due to their design. I just had one of these yesterday (Story & Clark grand). Drove me nuts! Move the pin...move the pin...move the pin...nothing happens...then tiny little move and pow!...the stupid string moves a mile. Sorry, but this is a pain in the butt and things were not PERFECT when done. I am not going to kill myself trying to wrestle with bad design. I'll do the best I can, and adapt my technique to do my best...but it ain't going to be ideal.

Sometimes it's like that.

Sometimes he/she is having a bad day. Sometimes he/she just had fight with a spouse. Sometimes he/she has some other "problem"...

Yes, probably should have mentioned it to them so as to have opportunity to fix it. Might not be a bad idea.

Pwg


On those Dongbei Stencils, lubricate the bearings and felt with CLP, then turn the pin back and forth a few times before going for the set. They get better after 6-12 tunings. The steel strings look like they are coated with something, and I think that causes them to hang up. Initial tunings on some of those took me more than 90 minutes. Each tuning gets a bit quicker and more stable.




Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2744819
06/16/18 07:51 AM
06/16/18 07:51 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,522
Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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Quote
On those Dongbei Stencils, lubricate the bearings and felt with CLP



Definitely Protek CLP, and not Protek Prolube?

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2744910
06/16/18 03:45 PM
06/16/18 03:45 PM
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Posts: 58
italy
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scanderbeg Offline
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italy
can a hammer that doesn't properly match the strings contribute to unstable tuning?


where there is a will, there is a path
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2744969
06/16/18 07:15 PM
06/16/18 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Automata
Although the answers are very useful, my question was how to use the hammer because I had read that after tuning a string you have to make a torsion movement of to fix the position of the pin

FWIW, I never took piano tuning lessons but once I bought myself my own tuning tools, I thought instinctively that I should use a rather impact-type technique using my modest conventional hammer. So in a few words, what I do for example on a string to go down in pitch is rather gently push with my palm while semi-holding the handle with four fingers, but in "jolts" (if this word makes any sense - English is not my mother tongue) instead of turning slowly. I use a similar gentle impact way to go up in pitch as well using my fingers and palm. And once the string pitch remains stable with hard notes played, on my grand I place the hammer around 12 o'clock (parallel to the string) and give one or two last impacts to make sure the pin moves without changing pitch. Around 12 o'clock the pitch varies very little for a given movement compared to other positions.

I believe my tunings remain relatively stable despite the terrible climate here (drastic RH changes throughout the seasons). Of course, another important aspect to tuning stability is to keep RH stable around the piano. For this, my grand has a DC system and in the humid summer days I use a dehumidifier in the piano room a few hours a day.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: David Boyce] #2744999
06/16/18 09:57 PM
06/16/18 09:57 PM
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Bob Offline
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
On those Dongbei Stencils, lubricate the bearings and felt with CLP



Definitely Protek CLP, and not Protek Prolube?


I used to carry both CLP and Prolube, and found that CLP is just as good, plus it lubes action centers, and cleans adhesive off keys and takes stickers off plates. Nothing wrong with using Prolube instead.




Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2745061
06/17/18 09:14 AM
06/17/18 09:14 AM
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Automata Offline OP
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A professional tuner told me that after tuning a string, you have to do the same thing that fiddlers do when they nail the pin but using the hammer. a gentle blow down so that the pin is fixed.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2745142
06/17/18 05:10 PM
06/17/18 05:10 PM
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New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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That's interesting. I've been doing this 43 years (high level concerts too) and more often than not the last movement I make on the hammer is slightly upwards (of course "it depends").

Just goes to prove that you need to gradually develop your own technique for STABILIZING the pin. Thus cones from practice and learning what DOES work and what DOESN'T work. Then you avoid what doesn't work well, and concentrate on what does work well. Ten years later it will seem like second nature.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: P W Grey] #2745995
06/21/18 05:40 AM
06/21/18 05:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 103
Melbourne, Australia
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[quote=P W Grey]That's interesting. I've been doing this 43 years (high level concerts too) and more often than not the last movement I make on the hammer is slightly upwards (of course "it depends").

Peter, when you make a 'slightly upwards' movement at the finish of working on a pin, is that a 'lifting' movement of the hammer on a grand piano tuning pin - as in slightly flag-poling? I assume to build in a higher tension in the NSL? It's a very interesting comment and I've been thinking about it since I read it.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2746128
06/21/18 04:29 PM
06/21/18 04:29 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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Yes.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
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