Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
New in our online store...
Tea Light
Tea Light with Frosted Music Staff Candle Holder


-------------------
European Tour for Piano Lovers
JOIN US FOR THE TOUR!
--------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2018
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


Who's Online Now
79 registered members (akc42, anotherscott, alexcawley, Animisha, almo82, 22 invisible), 1,000 guests, and 8 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Tuning durable. #2742347
06/05/18 05:03 PM
06/05/18 05:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 6
A
Automata Offline OP
Junior Member
Automata  Offline OP
Junior Member
A
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 6
Hi

How to use the piano tunning hammer so that the tuning is durable?



Thank you.

(ad 800)
PTG Convention
PTG Convention 2018 Lancaster PA
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742362
06/05/18 06:08 PM
06/05/18 06:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
Practice. You have to develop a feel for it.

You need to feel when the tuning pin has moved, when the string has moved, and how the string will move when you relax the tension.

There is no easy way to do this. You need experience, and that comes with practice.


Semipro Tech
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742371
06/05/18 06:43 PM
06/05/18 06:43 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
D
David Boyce Offline
Gold Subscriber
David Boyce  Offline
Gold Subscriber
D
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
Agreed.

There is not a set procedure for applying force to a tuning lever that will guarantee stable results for all users.

There are many different approaches, used by different and all excellent tuners, who get stable results. There are 'slow pull' tuners and 'quick jerks" tuners, Levitan C levers, carbon fiber levers etc etc. But it's all about whether the person using the lever and the techniques, has got the "feel" for those things that BDB describes.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742381
06/05/18 07:34 PM
06/05/18 07:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,886
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rickster  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,886
Georgia, USA
I'm just an amateur who tunes my own pianos, but I've learned that hard test blows along with good hammer technique, along with good humidity control can go a long way in having good tuning stability. A good concert tech friend and mentor showed me that. I've read that some tuners say they can get good tuning stability with soft and easy test blows, but I can't. The firm test blows helps to set the string firmly on the bearing points. It's going to drift out of tune eventually, but good tuning stability is good for the pin-block. :-)

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742398
06/05/18 10:27 PM
06/05/18 10:27 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,788
Tennessee
E
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Ed Foote  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,788
Tennessee
Greetings,
Tuning stability is difficult to describe, and we often resort to simply saying experience is the only way to get there, but I submit that more is required than simply time. Experience has many different qualities, and I have known some mediocre techs that have had their first five years of experience over and over again for their entire career, so mindless repetition doesn't qualify as more experience. I think there are some fundamental concepts the new tuner has to master if their time with hammer in hand is to produce the optimum education for time spent. These concepts can be envisioned well enough to provide a background for what happening. between their wrist and their ear.

Stability depends on the relationship of the tension between the tuning pin and agraffe and the tension between the agraffe and bridge pin. The top-string and speaking length, respectively. The friction at the bearing point separating these two sections is the major player in establishing the relationship. Close behind is the ability of the pin to move in sufficiently small increments so that the tuner can create an appropriate amount of tension in the top string without disturbing the speaking length.

So, to anchor the speaking length at any given pitch, the top string must be left at a higher tension, but not so much higher that the difference can overcome the friction at the bearing point. If the pin is rotated flat, it twists, so there will be a residual amount of tension stored in the pin. If the pitch is lowered from sharp to perfect, and then the hammer is released, the pin will increase the top-string tension as it relaxes, or , "unwinds". However, one cannot simply push the pin down until the pitch is reached and then let go. Too much unwinding and the speaking length will go sharp. This will happen in virtually any piano with tuning torque over 125 ft/lbs. there is more tension stored in the pin than the friction can resist, so the pitch has to be taken lower before releasing the pin. How much lower? It depends on the friction and the torque, and this is where experience will teach those that are mindful. A looser pin will allow the string to move with much less residual tension in the pin, so there is no "built-in" anchoring, which often requires a careful tightening of the top-string by moving the in clockwise, but not so much that it raises the speaking length, or gets too close to the friction limit of the agraffe. Tighter pins put a lot more residual twist in the pin, so the release pitch has to be lower to accommodate the greater tension as the pin "unwinds". When bumping back and forth, it is easy to lose track of whether the pitch was arrived at from below or above.

The art of stability is to learn how to manipulate the pin/agraffe combination so the string is left at pitch with a higher top-string tension. And ETD will tell when the string moves before the ear can detect it, so it can be a very valuable tool in learning stability. Watching what happens to the speaking length as we make our arcane moves can be a learning experience. When a string is solidly anchored, the amount of rotational pressure, (without moving the pin), on the hammer to make it move sharp is far less than the amount of pressure to make it go flat.

Regards,

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Ed Foote] #2742410
06/06/18 12:08 AM
06/06/18 12:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,442
Melbourne, Australia
A
ando Offline
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,442
Melbourne, Australia
That was an excellent summary, Ed!

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742441
06/06/18 05:12 AM
06/06/18 05:12 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
D
David Boyce Offline
Gold Subscriber
David Boyce  Offline
Gold Subscriber
D
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
Indeed a beautiful summary of vital concepts concerning string tension, agraffes, speaking and non-speaking length tensions, and pin movements. BUT:
Quote
as we make our arcane moves


The moves are admitted to be arcane!

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742592
06/06/18 03:39 PM
06/06/18 03:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 179
Upper Middle Tennessee
B
Bellyman Offline
Full Member
Bellyman  Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 179
Upper Middle Tennessee
Not only are their different tools and techniques, there are differences in pianos.

I've been able to navigate quite a few of them well, even had a few compliments from a PTG tuning examiner. But still, I will gladly turn down a tuning of a Steinway upright. They've been the most problematic tunings I've ever done and mostly, I just won't subject myself to that level of torture. Perhaps some years and models are better than others, it's been a while.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742633
06/06/18 05:43 PM
06/06/18 05:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 6
A
Automata Offline OP
Junior Member
Automata  Offline OP
Junior Member
A
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 6

thanks everyone for the answers

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742724
06/07/18 01:39 AM
06/07/18 01:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 101
Melbourne, Australia
H
Hemloch Online content
Full Member
Hemloch  Online Content
Full Member
H
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 101
Melbourne, Australia
Yes, thanks Ed, a really good essay in the arcane art of tuning stability.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742790
06/07/18 10:55 AM
06/07/18 10:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,148
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,148
Old Hangtown California
Anyone care to comment about tuning stability for in the typical home as opposed to on the concert stage?
Any difference?


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Gene Nelson] #2742796
06/07/18 11:38 AM
06/07/18 11:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
Anyone care to comment about tuning stability for in the typical home as opposed to on the concert stage?
Any difference?


If there is a difference, you need to work on that. You can never tell who is going to play in either situation.


Semipro Tech
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742800
06/07/18 11:48 AM
06/07/18 11:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
There is no difference. Octave stretching might be a little different by stability is stability. Same technique applied whether a D or a spinet.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742820
06/07/18 12:45 PM
06/07/18 12:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 179
Upper Middle Tennessee
B
Bellyman Offline
Full Member
Bellyman  Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 179
Upper Middle Tennessee
I've found the environment to be the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Doesn't really matter whether it's a home, a church, a school, or a concert hall. A big humidity swing that's sustained (such as a seasonal change) will kill even the best and most stable tuning. Few places I've been to actually have the environment controlled to the point where tunings are rock solid through the seasons. (I've seen a couple. they're rare. But they're a pleasure to work with when they happen. Going to tune and finding maybe a half dozen unisons to barely touch up and A at 440.0, after 6 months? Probably a tuners delight.)

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Bellyman] #2742826
06/07/18 01:11 PM
06/07/18 01:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
Around here, it could be 6 years, not 6 months.


Semipro Tech
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742847
06/07/18 02:46 PM
06/07/18 02:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
Of course, the effect of humidity is totally separate from the mechanical (and/or artistic) procedure that results in a pin/string assembly that will hold up to reasonably vigorous playing (until the humidity changes).

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742861
06/07/18 04:15 PM
06/07/18 04:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,148
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,148
Old Hangtown California
If there is no difference between in home and stage performance tunings, why do we tune on stage for every performance?? Even be required to standby through soundcheck for possible touch up??
While in home sometimes we tune one to 3 or 4 times annually???

Last edited by Gene Nelson; 06/07/18 04:17 PM.

RPT
PTG Member
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2742878
06/07/18 06:15 PM
06/07/18 06:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,522
PA
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member
daniokeeper  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,522
PA
Just to add my $0.02

Once you've set the pin, be careful not to disturb it as you remove the tuning hammer.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Gene Nelson] #2742900
06/07/18 08:31 PM
06/07/18 08:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 26,158
Oakland
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
If there is no difference between in home and stage performance tunings, why do we tune on stage for every performance?? Even be required to standby through soundcheck for possible touch up??
While in home sometimes we tune one to 3 or 4 times annually???


Because that is what they pay us to do!

If there is a critical performance on a piano, we may get called to tune it no matter whether it is on stage or in someone's home. I have had at least one person ask me to tune their home piano because an important pianist was going to play it. Sometimes I do not know ahead of time.


Semipro Tech
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Gene Nelson] #2742983
06/08/18 08:45 AM
06/08/18 08:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 555
Wisconsin, USA
L
Lakeviewsteve Offline
500 Post Club Member
Lakeviewsteve  Offline
500 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 555
Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
If there is no difference between in home and stage performance tunings, why do we tune on stage for every performance?? Even be required to standby through soundcheck for possible touch up??
While in home sometimes we tune one to 3 or 4 times annually???


Some pianos drift more than others. My tech has told me many venues don't take care of their pianos well. For example, they have drifted while he is tuning it (!!) when a big door is opened and a lot of humidity comes in all at once. In the winter they get very very dry and the venue does nothing about it. At a concert intermission one time I saw the stage hands move a Steinway concert grand in place but weren't paying attention. They were looking at the markings on the floor and weren't watching where they were going and ended up crashing into the conductor's podium. They also used the wrong holder thing for the hood prop. Thankfully the artist noticed it, motioned to the conductor and fixed that problem herself. There are tons of idiots out there.

Some artists travel with their own piano and technician. Vladimir Horowitz did this. Bösendorfer stores pianos for artists and arranges transport to concert venues. When I was there I saw about six all wrapped up and they said they were owned by artists and then explained this service to me. Must be nice!

Steve

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 06/08/18 08:49 AM.

Bösendorfer 170
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Gene Nelson] #2742991
06/08/18 09:13 AM
06/08/18 09:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 411
G
GC13 Offline
Full Member
GC13  Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 411
Originally Posted by Gene Nelson
If there is no difference between in home and stage performance tunings, why do we tune on stage for every performance?? Even be required to standby through soundcheck for possible touch up??
While in home sometimes we tune one to 3 or 4 times annually???


My tech is a local concert technician. The last time he tuned, he was talking about his concert-level tunings. I asked him if he would do the same on my piano, and he told me that he tunes every piano with the same concert-level technique. So isn't the reason for tuning just prior to performances and being on stand-by simply because the piano is expected to be "perfect" for the event? In my home, I don't need my piano's tuning to be "perfect" every day, but if it were in a recording studio that would be a different story. I've seen recording sessions held up and a tuner called b/c the something on the piano drifted out.

A friend of mine (a technician in Tennessee) knows the technician who takes care of the sanctuary piano at a large mega-church in Nashville. The church does a lot to control the humidity and temperature in their sanctuary, but they still have their piano tuned weekly just before the Sunday services. Why? Because there are many performing artists, producers, and music industry professionals who attend services there. Most of their instrumentalists and vocalists also work in the industry. The expectations on the quality of music is just much higher at that church than it is at the average church around the country.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743019
06/08/18 11:05 AM
06/08/18 11:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,148
Old Hangtown California
G
Gene Nelson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Gene Nelson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,148
Old Hangtown California
Performers want that perfect tuning and they want it to last through the performance.
For the perfect tuning for the average in home piano, I suppose people tend to be more tolerant of how long it lasts? and or cannot afford to keep it in perfect tune.
But who really hears the perfect tuning, or should I say who hears that perfect tuning drift out of tune?
Unisons are most noticeable and I have experienced very few that hear the intervals drift.
Stage lights come on and the lid is open so where the heat from the light hits strings they relax a bit and drift flat.
Some stage managers are starting to use LED's and it makes a difference.
Some want the lid off.
Then others will mic the piano and Im not certain if anyone can hear much of any out of tune-ness then.
The hall fills with 1500 people - thats 1500 98.6 degree heaters. It has an impact.
Many artists come to a performance on the defensive. Its easy to tell by the prerequisites - like: stay to touch up after rehearsal, allow time to meet and consult with artist, stay through intermission incase touch up is needed. Suprised when no touch up is necessary.
Humidity control systems are just about impossible, stage hands as noted above, can be clueless about pianos and keeping a system plugged in is above and beyond the call.
Most homes tend to be a more stable environment in many ways.
But how long does a perfect tuning really last? Not very long. You can leave a piano untouched and within 24 hours or less find slight changes.
I have been required to tune the performance piano in the piano storage room - its always 8 degrees warmer than on stage. Management knows that the tuning will drift slightly when brought on stage but its the only way that tuning can happen in regard to access times.
So I agree, stage performance and in home tunings are or should be the same.


RPT
PTG Member
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743020
06/08/18 11:15 AM
06/08/18 11:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 179
Upper Middle Tennessee
B
Bellyman Offline
Full Member
Bellyman  Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 179
Upper Middle Tennessee
GC13, if that piano in the mega-church in Nashville is a decent piano, that's a sweet gig for your tuner friend-of-a-friend. If he's good at setting pins, I seriously doubt if he's adjusting every tuning pin every week.

Now, if it's a crappy piano that won't stay put no matter how careful you are, it would be somewhat of a pain.

Even individual pianos can be different. 20 years ago, I helped to maintain a fleet of Baldwin studio uprights that were rentals. For the most part, any of them did pretty well. But there was one that was exceptional. It sure looked like all the rest of them, even sounded pretty close. But it was just rock solid. I remember one time they asked me to tune it for a gig across town but before it was moved across town. We loaded it up in the back of a moving truck and bounced across numerous city streets. And I took my tuning kit along to touch it up when we got there. Put it in it's spot and went up and down that keyboard a dozen times. There was just nothing to tune. That was a sweet piano. Kinda wish I could quantify why, and why THAT one.

To be fair, tuning level technique does matter. Where you leave the tension on the non-speaking parts of the strings is important, and I'm not sure how easy that is to teach. I remember of following around a tuner who slapped on those 45 minute tunings that wouldn't hold past the two week "warranty" that the store provided. Then again, I'm a slowpoke who generally tunes, beats the daylights out of the thing while I'm sitting there, and then touches up anything that seems to need it. I'm sure all have their methods. I do what works for me. Takes me a couple of hours. But when I leave, I'd like to think it's a dang good tuning that should last as well as any.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743024
06/08/18 11:28 AM
06/08/18 11:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,886
Georgia, USA
Rickster Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Rickster  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 11,886
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by Bellyman
Then again, I'm a slowpoke who generally tunes, beats the daylights out of the thing while I'm sitting there, and then touches up anything that seems to need it. I'm sure all have their methods. I do what works for me. Takes me a couple of hours. But when I leave, I'd like to think it's a dang good tuning that should last as well as any.

That describes my tuning technique to the tee, Bellyman! smile

And, my tunings hold pretty good, in my view. I used to grab the tuning hammer every time I heard the least little inkling of a wayward unison, but I've progressed beyond that. Now, that little twang don't hurt a thang, till I'm ready to tune and bang. smile

Hey, one could dance a gig to that rhyme... smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743032
06/08/18 12:20 PM
06/08/18 12:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 411
G
GC13 Offline
Full Member
GC13  Offline
Full Member
G
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 411
Bellyman, it is a very nice Yamaha C7. I am also acquainted with the pianist / musical director at the church. They really baby their piano. It's probably one of the best-cared-for pianos in a church.

There are so many factors and skills that have to come together for tuning stability. Those who master the art have my utmost respect and admiration!

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743076
06/08/18 03:48 PM
06/08/18 03:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
Whether you tune one string or 230 does not really matter. If you've been hired to prepare it, have done what needs to be done, are willing to stand behind it as being in tune and concert ready, you have earned your fee. If it takes 10 minutes or two hours and holds up, you're golden. If it takes 10 minutes or two hours and DOESN'T hold up...you're in trouble and correcting it is on you.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743140
06/08/18 11:17 PM
06/08/18 11:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,707
Florida
B
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bob  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,707
Florida
A concert tuning is knowing which strings need tuning and leaving the rest alone. After all, if a string is in tune, and it made it though rehearsal, why mess with it? If you are tuning every string, it's not a concert tuning - it's the tuning before the concert tuning.

It's not how hard you hit the key, it's how you hit the key.

Tuning takes as long as it takes. I had a Yamaha GH 1 and a Chinese Story and Clark each take 90 minutes due to pins that jumped 20 cents. Neither were pitch raises - it just took forever to set each string and pin. A Baldwin Classic took 75 minutes due to 200 inch pound torque.

On the other hand, I tuned my Dad's Steinway O today in 45 minutes. The rebuilder took care to make sure the tuning pins turn smoothly, at about 130 inch pounds. Very easy to tune, that piano. Each piano is different and experience makes the difference.

Beginning tuners should take as much time to set each pin and string as they need. Use and electronic tuner, tune the string, hit the key hard a dozen times. If the pitch changes, something wasn't set. Realize that raising a string more than 5 cents requires compensation (overpull), or the unison will be flat. It's rare for me to tune in the home without pitch raising or overpull. Realize that a pitch raise or overpull tuning will settle, and a follow up tuning is needed. Some pianos handle pitch raises better than others.

Make sure your tuning hammer tip fits the pins. I have size 1, 2, and 3 tips installed on extensions for my Schaff lever. To change tip size, I simply slip in a different extension. For tight pins, I leave it extended. For normal pins, it's shorter. For a slow pull, I use a tight fitting tip. For a ratchet type technique, I'll use a looser fitting tip.

Lube the capo, bearings, and understring felt whenever strings hang up. Why struggle when a bit of lube helps?

And as mentioned above, practice. It's 1000 pianos if tuning by ETD, 10,000 pianos if tuning by ear before concert level is reached.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743203
06/09/18 10:37 AM
06/09/18 10:37 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
D
David Boyce Offline
Gold Subscriber
David Boyce  Offline
Gold Subscriber
D
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
Bellyman, you observe
Quote
Where you leave the tension on the non-speaking parts of the strings is important, and I'm not sure how easy that is to teach.


Indeed. The original post asks "How to using the tuning hammer so that the tuning is durable".

This thread now has lots of excellent comments about tension in speaking and non-speaking lengths, setting the pin, etc.

But no-one has described how to use the tuning lever, in terms of the physical movements involved. It probably isn't possible to do so.

Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743220
06/09/18 12:10 PM
06/09/18 12:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,324
New Hampshire
For the beginner:

For the sake of discussion lets assume that a tuning pin and string that has been sitting untouched for a week or so and played regularly is now in a state of stability where it is not going to move either direction no matter how hard it is played. This is the condition YOU want to achieve when you take your tuning hammer off the pin.

In order to do this, from the moment you put your hammer on the pin, you need to mentally and physically remember EVERYTHING you do to it, while you are doing it, because you will need to reverse ALL of it in order to achieve stability. Your brain and body needs to register all this information continually. This takes concentration and practice. This is why it takes 10,000 pianos to truly master the process.

Have you ever watched a rock climber scale a vertical rock face using only the tips of their fingers and their toes? Do you think that kind of physical prowess happened in a few weeks or months? It takes years to develop this nearly (seemingly) impossible ability. Yet, it can be done with lots of practice and concentration.

Can you imagine memorizing EVERY street (repeat EVERY STREET) in the city of London, which ones are one way, what is the fastest way to get from any point to any other point in the city, and recall it instantly? Yet this is exactly what a London cab driver must do in order to qualify as a cabby in that city. They have to pass a test proving that they can do it without a mistake. Impossible you say? Not impossible, but it takes practice and concentration, just like learning to used a tuning hammer properly.

There is also a mind set for all of these activities, which takes time to develop. It will not happen unless you are determined to make it happen. You learn what works and what doesnt work by doing, making mistakes and learning from them. There is no shortcut.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
(Best way to contact me privately)
Re: Tuning durable. [Re: Automata] #2743224
06/09/18 12:46 PM
06/09/18 12:46 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
D
David Boyce Offline
Gold Subscriber
David Boyce  Offline
Gold Subscriber
D
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,411
Scotland
Beautifully put, Peter.

The test which London cabbies must pass, over several sessions, to get a license, is called "The Knowledge".

The area of the brain that is altered is the hippocampus. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm

Fascinatingly, oh but fascinatingly, aural piano tuning has also been shown to enlarge the hippocampus.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-art...iano-tuning-changes-brain-structure-Teki

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

New Topics - Multiple Forums
Placement - Heating Vents
by DDobs. 06/22/18 04:42 AM
Dynamics on note-level
by Animisha. 06/22/18 01:38 AM
Moving console-style digital pianos
by marimorimo. 06/21/18 11:55 PM
iLoud Micro users here?
by EVC2017. 06/21/18 07:51 PM
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Steingraeber
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Forum Statistics
Forums40
Topics186,093
Posts2,726,598
Members90,428
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2018 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1