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....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions #2740864
05/30/18 09:18 PM
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Pianoloverus gave us the thread on great codas. So why not this one too.....

Chopin gives us a bunch of easy ones:

G minor Ballade
Bb minor Sonata
Mazurka in C# minor, Op. 30 #4
....and of course the F minor Ballade, if we consider that an intro, which I do.

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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740891
05/31/18 12:27 AM
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Chopin - Heroic Polonaise Opus 53
Chopin - Valse Brillante Opus 34 No.1
Chopin - Valse Opus 42

Beethoven - Sonata Opus 78
Beethoven - Sonata Opus 13

Schumann - Papillons Opus 2

Liszt - Mazeppa
Liszt - Ricordanza
Liszt - Wilde Jagd
Liszt - Harmonies du Soir
Liszt - Eroica


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740909
05/31/18 03:15 AM
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How about Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso Op 14 ? (another warhorse)


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740911
05/31/18 03:37 AM
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Clementi Sonata in B minor, Op. 40, No. 2

Liszt Totentanz (okay, not really an introduction, but that opening is a bolt of lightning)

Both the Schumann and the Grieg Piano Concerti

Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 2


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740930
05/31/18 06:27 AM
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Beethoven - Piano Concerto 4

Ravel - Oiseaux Tristes

Dohnanyi - Variations on a Nursery Theme


Beethoven - Piano Sonata, op. 101
Bartok - Piano Sonata
Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740941
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Mahler Symphony 9
Mahler Symphony 7
Mahler Symphony 1 (yes I love Mahler)
Beethoven Les Adieux
Beethoven op. 111
Wagner Das Rheingold and Tristan and Isolde
Rachmaninoff sonata 1
Liszt sonata
Beethoven piano concerto 5

Seems like the germans are the master of introductions wink

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740965
05/31/18 09:51 AM
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No one mentioned Chopin Barcarolle??

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740968
05/31/18 10:05 AM
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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: mp15] #2740982
05/31/18 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mp15
Beethoven - Piano Concerto 4

Ravel - Oiseaux Tristes

Dohnanyi - Variations on a Nursery Theme
Is the Ravel example really an intro? To me that would just be the first statement of a motif?

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741031
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Beethoven - 7th Symphony 1st movement
Chopin - Op 2 - Variations on "Là ci darem la mano"

Do overtures count?


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741082
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Tchaikovsky pc1

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741084
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Reizenstein's Concerto Poplare.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741132
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
the F minor Ballade, if we consider that an intro, which I do.

We're back to definitions again. That said, there is no conceivable sense in which the opening to the F minor Ballade could be considered an introduction. None of the great Chopin last period works has an introduction, including the Barcarolle, for reasons that I will be happy to explain if anyone is interested. I also do not think the opening to the second sonata is an introduction.

And I have to disagree with mp15. I can't remember how Oiseaux Tristes goes -- maybe that's ok, but in the Beethoven and Dohnanyi examples, the openings are the main themes -- in the latter case, the only theme! So, no.

booo1234 nailed it. Tchaikovsky's first concerto is the perfect example of an introduction that goes nowhere except where it should, viz. the composition that it precedes.

One of my favorite intros is Beethoven's first symphony, which is clever in a way that any educated listener can understand. Then there's Rheingold. This is not a "prelude" or "overture". It really is an introduction, of a unique and very powerful kind, to the 13 hours of music that follows.

Preludes to Tristan and Meistersingers are a bit more complicated. I'll leave that alone for now.


SRF
Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: pianoloverus] #2741133
05/31/18 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by mp15
Beethoven - Piano Concerto 4

Ravel - Oiseaux Tristes

Dohnanyi - Variations on a Nursery Theme
Is the Ravel example really an intro? To me that would just be the first statement of a motif?

Yeah, I don't know Oiseaux Tristes, but the other examples are certainly not introductions.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: SiFi] #2741135
06/01/18 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SiFi

. . . in the Beethoven and Dohnanyi examples, the openings are the main themes -- in the latter case, the only theme! So, no.

Ok, I forgot about the long introduction in the Dohnanyi and I totally retract what I said about it. Yes, that is a "classic", albeit satirical, introduction, in keeping with the rest of the piece. Actually a brilliant prelude to the huge anticlimax which is the first statement of the theme.

Apologies for my mistake. However, I stand firm on the Beethoven.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: SiFi] #2741140
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Originally Posted by SiFi
[....there is no conceivable sense in which the opening to the F minor Ballade could be considered an introduction. None of the great Chopin last period works has an introduction, including the Barcarolle, for reasons that I will be happy to explain if anyone is interested. I also do not think the opening to the second sonata is an introduction....

Funny, I most definitely consider all 3 of those most definitely to most definitely be most definitely introductions.
Although of course that's just my opinion. ha

Per what you said, it must be about differing concepts of what's an introduction or isn't. And really, wouldn't we have to say (most definitely) grin that this kind of thing is completely up for grabs, because, unlike some other things we might mention, like "fugue" or "concerto," introduction isn't a technical musical term or form or any such thing, and so it's only about however we see the plain English definition -- which can vary.

(And come to think of it so can fugue and concerto.) smile

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741191
06/01/18 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Pianoloverus gave us the thread on great codas. So why not this one too......
Nice thread! Yesterday I had the thought to start exactly such a thread but was facing a deadline for work so I didn't. I was sure that others would have the same idea and I'm happy to see this here.

Interestingly, my first example would be Chopin's Barcarolle (op. 60)! Let's imagine that the piece started with the quiet LH figuration. Though I could be wrong, I doubt that many people (perhaps anyone) to this day would have said, "It feels like something is missing at the beginning." I think it would still have been accepted and loved as a masterpiece of feeling. But add those opening bars and an extra dimension is added. I think that this factor, from a listener's perspective, is enough to shepherd the passage in question into the "introduction" category, even if a more musicological/analytical perspective would exclude it.

I don't think the F minor Ballade (Op. 52) really works without the opening measures - too abruptly declamatory -- there needs to be an vulnerable, tender, uneasy "gloomy murk" out of which the lament emerges -- but I feel like calling that an introduction too. If an opening passage precedes something that feels like the first "main" theme/idea/mood, that's good enough for me, even if it is an outline of the first or another theme.

Originally Posted by Mark_C
Mazurka in C# minor, Op. 30 #4

Yes! An outine/hint is given, which then becomes the actual theme. (By the way, am I the only one who finds the rhythm and flow of that intro extremely difficult to pull off? There seems to be a narrow and elusive "sweet spot" outside which my playing feels wooden and clunky. When the dotted rhythms arrive it feels like sinking into a comforting, warm bubble bath -- aaaaaa!) The atmosphere that Chopin builds up in those measures is remarkable. I'm sure that many of us could write pages about this piece.

I nominate the solo piano passage at the beginning of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2. Deservedly famous/memorable/iconic.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741254
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So do we think the Andante Spianato is really just an introduction for the Grand Polonaise, a separate work, or both?

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741289
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Beethoven's 4th symphony immediately comes to mind.
And his Op. 111.

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741291
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Oh no!, the intro thread is about to overtake my coda thread! I wonder if a moderator can shut this thread down? laugh

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/01/18 01:20 PM.
Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: pianoloverus] #2741293
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If you'd like I can keep bumping yours. [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741617
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Shouldn't this thread really have been first?!
Additionally we'll need a thread on Developments

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: antony] #2741642
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Originally Posted by antony
Shouldn't this thread really have been first?!
Additionally we'll need a thread on Developments


We could feature some
- Drastic Developments along with some
- Arrested Developments, followed by
- Recalcitrant Recapitulations or
- Recanted Recapitulations!

What about some Tremulous Trios? (I doubt that we'd find any Terrible Trios!)

Cheers!


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741643
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Favorite introduction for me is the intro to the Griffes sonata. A sinister and menacing intro that perfectly sets the mood for a dark and scary piece. But it's an unusual and tricky pianistic figuration that has to be played just right...if it's rushed through too fast or if any part of it is not played in proper time and dynamic as written, it loses impact.

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741652
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Schumann piano sonata 1, 1st mov
- I think this is a pretty classic introduction even though the material is heard again later.

Brahms piano trio 3 in C minor, 1st mov
- Might not qualify, just a great opening

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2742028
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Perhaps the shortest introduction in the literature of western music: the first bar of the Adagio of Beethoven's Op. 106 (Hammerklavier). In early manuscripts/sketches of the work, this movement launches (not quite the right word) straight into the opening theme. But the composer evidently felt that something was needed to prepare the listener for the sudden intrusion of F# minor tonality so he added an introductory bar. What's amazing is that it feels so "right". If you play the end of the 2nd movement then start the 3rd movement at bar two, the tonal shift is so stark that it takes away from the expressivity of the moment. But with the simple two-note intro, everything feels right. The distant tonality sounds almost preordained. Pure genius!


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: SiFi] #2742044
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Originally Posted by SiFi
Perhaps the shortest introduction in the literature of western music: the first bar of the Adagio of Beethoven's Op. 106 (Hammerklavier).

Talking about Luddy and brief intros, surely the start of the Eroica Symphony takes the biscuit - two loud E flat chords in the whole orchestra, which wakes the audience up and tells them what key the symphony is in. Luddy probably did that because of complaints that his intro to No.1 starts in the wrong key and meanders around with one perfect cadence after another in different keys, giving those sensitive souls vertigo........ wink

However, for an extended E flat intro, this takes the biscuit - especially in this luscious recording by the master of legato (as his successor Sir Rattle puts it). Wallow! thumb:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1C_e4MEtlo

But Mahler's 9th starts with a heart beating with an arrhythmia - what better premonition of death, knowing that your heart can't beat in time?......(N.B. for those who have it, these days AF is hardly anything to worry about).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwwhZGtcnSM


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2742107
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Even though I am in the camp that believes it is probably not Bach, I can't leave out the Toccata and Fugue in D minor.

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Fareham] #2742278
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Originally Posted by Fareham
How about Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso Op 14 ? (another warhorse)

You beat me to it - I prefer the into to the rest of it.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: P3T3R] #2742283
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Originally Posted by P3T3R
Originally Posted by Fareham
How about Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso Op 14 ? (another warhorse)

You beat me to it - I prefer the into to the rest of it.

I love it all -- but, my favorite part is.....
(this might lead us to another one of these) ha

.....where the melody goes into the left hand and the right hand has the arpeggios.

Idea for thread: Pieces where the melody goes into the left hand for a while.....

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