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....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions #2740864
05/30/18 08:18 PM
05/30/18 08:18 PM
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Mark_C Offline OP
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Pianoloverus gave us the thread on great codas. So why not this one too.....

Chopin gives us a bunch of easy ones:

G minor Ballade
Bb minor Sonata
Mazurka in C# minor, Op. 30 #4
....and of course the F minor Ballade, if we consider that an intro, which I do.

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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740891
05/30/18 11:27 PM
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Chopin - Heroic Polonaise Opus 53
Chopin - Valse Brillante Opus 34 No.1
Chopin - Valse Opus 42

Beethoven - Sonata Opus 78
Beethoven - Sonata Opus 13

Schumann - Papillons Opus 2

Liszt - Mazeppa
Liszt - Ricordanza
Liszt - Wilde Jagd
Liszt - Harmonies du Soir
Liszt - Eroica


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740909
05/31/18 02:15 AM
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How about Mendelssohn's Rondo Capriccioso Op 14 ? (another warhorse)


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740911
05/31/18 02:37 AM
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Clementi Sonata in B minor, Op. 40, No. 2

Liszt Totentanz (okay, not really an introduction, but that opening is a bolt of lightning)

Both the Schumann and the Grieg Piano Concerti

Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 2


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740930
05/31/18 05:27 AM
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Beethoven - Piano Concerto 4

Ravel - Oiseaux Tristes

Dohnanyi - Variations on a Nursery Theme


Beethoven - Piano Sonata, op. 101
Bartok - Piano Sonata
Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740941
05/31/18 06:46 AM
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Mahler Symphony 9
Mahler Symphony 7
Mahler Symphony 1 (yes I love Mahler)
Beethoven Les Adieux
Beethoven op. 111
Wagner Das Rheingold and Tristan and Isolde
Rachmaninoff sonata 1
Liszt sonata
Beethoven piano concerto 5

Seems like the germans are the master of introductions wink

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740965
05/31/18 08:51 AM
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No one mentioned Chopin Barcarolle??

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2740968
05/31/18 09:05 AM
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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: mp15] #2740982
05/31/18 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mp15
Beethoven - Piano Concerto 4

Ravel - Oiseaux Tristes

Dohnanyi - Variations on a Nursery Theme
Is the Ravel example really an intro? To me that would just be the first statement of a motif?

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741031
05/31/18 02:16 PM
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Beethoven - 7th Symphony 1st movement
Chopin - Op 2 - Variations on "Là ci darem la mano"

Do overtures count?


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741082
05/31/18 06:51 PM
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Tchaikovsky pc1

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741084
05/31/18 07:02 PM
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Reizenstein's Concerto Poplare.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741132
05/31/18 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
the F minor Ballade, if we consider that an intro, which I do.

We're back to definitions again. That said, there is no conceivable sense in which the opening to the F minor Ballade could be considered an introduction. None of the great Chopin last period works has an introduction, including the Barcarolle, for reasons that I will be happy to explain if anyone is interested. I also do not think the opening to the second sonata is an introduction.

And I have to disagree with mp15. I can't remember how Oiseaux Tristes goes -- maybe that's ok, but in the Beethoven and Dohnanyi examples, the openings are the main themes -- in the latter case, the only theme! So, no.

booo1234 nailed it. Tchaikovsky's first concerto is the perfect example of an introduction that goes nowhere except where it should, viz. the composition that it precedes.

One of my favorite intros is Beethoven's first symphony, which is clever in a way that any educated listener can understand. Then there's Rheingold. This is not a "prelude" or "overture". It really is an introduction, of a unique and very powerful kind, to the 13 hours of music that follows.

Preludes to Tristan and Meistersingers are a bit more complicated. I'll leave that alone for now.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: pianoloverus] #2741133
05/31/18 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by mp15
Beethoven - Piano Concerto 4

Ravel - Oiseaux Tristes

Dohnanyi - Variations on a Nursery Theme
Is the Ravel example really an intro? To me that would just be the first statement of a motif?

Yeah, I don't know Oiseaux Tristes, but the other examples are certainly not introductions.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: SiFi] #2741135
05/31/18 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by SiFi

. . . in the Beethoven and Dohnanyi examples, the openings are the main themes -- in the latter case, the only theme! So, no.

Ok, I forgot about the long introduction in the Dohnanyi and I totally retract what I said about it. Yes, that is a "classic", albeit satirical, introduction, in keeping with the rest of the piece. Actually a brilliant prelude to the huge anticlimax which is the first statement of the theme.

Apologies for my mistake. However, I stand firm on the Beethoven.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: SiFi] #2741140
05/31/18 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SiFi
[....there is no conceivable sense in which the opening to the F minor Ballade could be considered an introduction. None of the great Chopin last period works has an introduction, including the Barcarolle, for reasons that I will be happy to explain if anyone is interested. I also do not think the opening to the second sonata is an introduction....

Funny, I most definitely consider all 3 of those most definitely to most definitely be most definitely introductions.
Although of course that's just my opinion. ha

Per what you said, it must be about differing concepts of what's an introduction or isn't. And really, wouldn't we have to say (most definitely) grin that this kind of thing is completely up for grabs, because, unlike some other things we might mention, like "fugue" or "concerto," introduction isn't a technical musical term or form or any such thing, and so it's only about however we see the plain English definition -- which can vary.

(And come to think of it so can fugue and concerto.) smile

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741191
06/01/18 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Pianoloverus gave us the thread on great codas. So why not this one too......
Nice thread! Yesterday I had the thought to start exactly such a thread but was facing a deadline for work so I didn't. I was sure that others would have the same idea and I'm happy to see this here.

Interestingly, my first example would be Chopin's Barcarolle (op. 60)! Let's imagine that the piece started with the quiet LH figuration. Though I could be wrong, I doubt that many people (perhaps anyone) to this day would have said, "It feels like something is missing at the beginning." I think it would still have been accepted and loved as a masterpiece of feeling. But add those opening bars and an extra dimension is added. I think that this factor, from a listener's perspective, is enough to shepherd the passage in question into the "introduction" category, even if a more musicological/analytical perspective would exclude it.

I don't think the F minor Ballade (Op. 52) really works without the opening measures - too abruptly declamatory -- there needs to be an vulnerable, tender, uneasy "gloomy murk" out of which the lament emerges -- but I feel like calling that an introduction too. If an opening passage precedes something that feels like the first "main" theme/idea/mood, that's good enough for me, even if it is an outline of the first or another theme.

Originally Posted by Mark_C
Mazurka in C# minor, Op. 30 #4

Yes! An outine/hint is given, which then becomes the actual theme. (By the way, am I the only one who finds the rhythm and flow of that intro extremely difficult to pull off? There seems to be a narrow and elusive "sweet spot" outside which my playing feels wooden and clunky. When the dotted rhythms arrive it feels like sinking into a comforting, warm bubble bath -- aaaaaa!) The atmosphere that Chopin builds up in those measures is remarkable. I'm sure that many of us could write pages about this piece.

I nominate the solo piano passage at the beginning of Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 2. Deservedly famous/memorable/iconic.


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Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741254
06/01/18 10:05 AM
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So do we think the Andante Spianato is really just an introduction for the Grand Polonaise, a separate work, or both?

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741289
06/01/18 12:17 PM
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Beethoven's 4th symphony immediately comes to mind.
And his Op. 111.

Re: ....folllowing up on codas: Great introductions [Re: Mark_C] #2741291
06/01/18 12:20 PM
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Oh no!, the intro thread is about to overtake my coda thread! I wonder if a moderator can shut this thread down? laugh

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/01/18 12:20 PM.
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