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Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: OneWatt] #2739968
05/27/18 09:41 PM
05/27/18 09:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,501
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by OneWatt
Don't want to be a kill-joy here, but I'm afraid we may be failing into the trap of comparing preferences for fruits, each of which has its season.

...

Go taste fruit. Sadly, if there's no fruit stand nearby, please realize you're really just asking what the rest of us prefer. We're happy to tell you, but you'd be wise to not let our tastes influence yours.


Nicely put! wink

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
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Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: Kawai James] #2739974
05/27/18 11:16 PM
05/27/18 11:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 498
Mountain Time, USA
OneWatt Online content
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by OneWatt
Don't want to be a kill-joy here, but I'm afraid we may be failing into the trap of comparing preferences for fruits, each of which has its season.

...

Go taste fruit. Sadly, if there's no fruit stand nearby, please realize you're really just asking what the rest of us prefer. We're happy to tell you, but you'd be wise to not let our tastes influence yours.


Nicely put! wink

James
x


Thanks James, most especially coming from one of the finest fruit stands. smile

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2739994
05/28/18 01:25 AM
05/28/18 01:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,501
Hamamatsu, Japan
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Flight of the Conchords reference coming in 3...2...1... wink


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: OneWatt] #2740059
05/28/18 09:13 AM
05/28/18 09:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 685
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by OneWatt
...
Go taste fruit. Sadly, if there's no fruit stand nearby, please realize you're really just asking what the rest of us prefer. We're happy to tell you, but you'd be wise to not let our tastes influence yours.


I agree with you. What matters is how a piano, either digital or acoustic, feels to the player. Nevertheless, advice on DPs/actions is one the recurring topics on this forum... I guess all these numbers and measurements provide some level of reassurance when investing on a DP, even if those numbers play a secondary role on how an actual DP actually feels...

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Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2740064
05/28/18 09:24 AM
05/28/18 09:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,259
Raleigh, North Carolina
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I'm of the opposite opinion.

Subjective opinions are suspect. And quantitative measurements do not align with hands-on experience.

The designer may be able to correlate test measurements with human-judged performance. But we're not piano engineers!

The only way for us to judge a piano is to try it. Fingers and ears are our only meaningful test equipment.

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: MacMacMac] #2740085
05/28/18 10:38 AM
05/28/18 10:38 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 685
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I'm of the opposite opinion.

Subjective opinions are suspect. And quantitative measurements do not align with hands-on experience.

The designer may be able to correlate test measurements with human-judged performance. But we're not piano engineers!

The only way for us to judge a piano is to try it. Fingers and ears are our only meaningful test equipment.


Probably I worded my comment wrong, but this is exactly what I tried to say. But the fact is that many of us are trying to get a false reassurance based on measurements and numbers.

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2740143
05/28/18 02:38 PM
05/28/18 02:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 301
Maryland, USA
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Maryland, USA
The following, of course, is full subjective of one (me) person’s opinion. But I do have the convenience of my two acoustic grands being in the same room, and the MP11 being just about 10 feet away, and I do play all 3 of them regularly, albeit usually not within the same day. I would like to comment on the keytop being slippery or not, and the subjective “heavy” feeling.

Background info:

Steinway B: has the original ivory keytop for naturals, and ebony wood for the sharps.
Steinway A: the recent NY production, with synthetics keytop for both naturals and sharps. (The only exception from NY factory is the model D which uses ebony wood keytop)

Both B and A are maintained by highly qualified technicians.

Compared to these two acoustic grands, I do not find MP11’s keytops to be more slippery. I like the keytops of B the most, but I don’t find the other two bad.

Perceived weight/resistance when playing: I don’t find MP11’s to be consistently “heavier” or “lighter”. I do think its tone/sound production makes it a tad harder for me to play. But I can move around these 3 without major problems. I got most of my true practice on MP11.


1969 Hamburg Steinway B, rebuilt by PianoCraft in 2017
2013 New York Steinway A
Kawai MP11

Previously: 2005 Yamaha GB1, 1992 Yamaha C5
Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: Davdoc] #2740630
05/30/18 07:32 AM
05/30/18 07:32 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5
Canada
R
Reg McM Offline
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Posts: 5
Canada
Thanks for making the comparison, Davdoc. I'm anxiously waiting for my new MP11SE to arrive today and with the wide range of opinions voiced about the action and keyboard surface, I found your perspective reassuring.

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: Reg McM] #2740661
05/30/18 09:27 AM
05/30/18 09:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 187
Mountain Brook, AL, USA
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jeffscot Offline
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Mountain Brook, AL, USA

wow reg mcm,

returned the 18 lbs. board and purchased a 75 lbs. board!? 😉
you really went for the better action!


.... Jeff /// Yamaha P515 /// Roll Tide
Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2740734
05/30/18 01:10 PM
05/30/18 01:10 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5
Canada
R
Reg McM Offline
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5
Canada
I wondered if anyone was going to pick up on that!

Yeah, I decided to stay with my existing band setup (RD-64 plus Kronos 61) and go for a good home practice piano. My Yamaha grand is in my livingroom - not a good place to make practice noise.

I do fantasize that I'll be able to manage dragging it out of the house now and then. In my younger days I gigged with a 90lb Yamaha CP30 and later with a CP70 Electric grand, which I would load into my truck by myself. Times have changed though.

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2740840
05/30/18 06:18 PM
05/30/18 06:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 421
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hag01 Offline OP
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Reg McM : I'll tell you what I think about that:
Portability is one of the reasons I'm choosing the MP11SE over the CA78.

The MP11SE is not portable enough for me to take it to a humble gig in the local community center, or to take it to a rehearsal room on a weekly basis.
However, I find it not too terrible to move it from one appartment to another once in a while, or to take it with me to a long stay abroad.

For those aims, I think having a flight case for the MP11SE, with built in castors, is a must. If I'll have to take it with me to somewhere, I would want to rely on the castors and move it mostly with the assistence of the castors.
Of course there will be places I'll have to lift it a bit, like stairs and such, but I would like to avoid lifting it as much as I can.

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2740882
05/30/18 10:58 PM
05/30/18 10:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 365
Celestis
Granyala Offline
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Celestis
I'm sitting here, imagining a single person lifting an MP11SE + Flightcase.

My back already says: "ouch". laugh


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: Granyala] #2740887
05/30/18 11:09 PM
05/30/18 11:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 498
Mountain Time, USA
OneWatt Online content
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OneWatt  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 498
Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted by Granyala
I'm sitting here, imagining a single person lifting an MP11SE + Flightcase.
My back already says: "ouch". laugh

Agreed. Perhaps a bit easier for a married person?

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: arc7urus] #2740997
05/31/18 12:11 PM
05/31/18 12:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 421
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hag01 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

Originally Posted by trigalg693
For the money, it doesn't feel close enough to a real piano for me. IMO they need to make the "hammer" (weight) much lighter, have the fake letoff have more of a dome switch feel so it has a little more pop coming up, and move the key's counterweight to the opposite end to bring the touch weight back up. A real piano's hammer can be felt coming off the jack/repetition lever, whereas the Kawai keyboard feels mostly like a static weight on the other end of the fulcrum, since the weight is so heavy and "geared short".


For sure, the GF action does not feel like an acoustic grand piano action because the mechanics are very different. The static weight of the GF2 is ca. 55 grams on the middle octaves, which would not be considered an "heavy" regulation on an acoustic grand. What DP/action would you suggest that actually does a better job simulating an acoustic action and would be a better "value for money"?

Hey, I just noticed that the 55 grams static weight you mentioned, is for the Grand Feel 2.

Anyone know what is exactly the static weight of the Grand Feel 1 in middle octaves?

Last edited by hag01; 05/31/18 12:11 PM.
Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2741019
05/31/18 01:19 PM
05/31/18 01:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 498
Mountain Time, USA
OneWatt Online content
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Mountain Time, USA
Originally Posted by hag01
Hey, I just noticed that the 55 grams static weight you mentioned, is for the Grand Feel 2.

Anyone know what is exactly the static weight of the Grand Feel 1 in middle octaves?


Don't know about "exactly" ... but on my MP11SE (GF1):

Middle C: Downweight measures at 50-52g depending how much key movement one's definition requires.
Upweight is around 42-45, also depending on one's criterion of movement. Implies friction of approximately 4-5g.

As noted previously these are static metrics. Perhaps interesting to some, but not terribly informative as to how it feels to play the instrument.

FWIW, if one were regulating a real grand piano action, these figures would fall in the "normal" zone for most players. Please remember, data is not the same as information.

- OneWatt

Re: Last thoughts before ordering a Kawai MP11SE [Re: hag01] #2741021
05/31/18 01:31 PM
05/31/18 01:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 421
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hag01 Offline OP
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And what is the static weight of RM3 Grand II action in middle octaves?
Just for perspective(I have big experience with RM3 Grand II, and yes I know static weight is not everything, but still).

Thank you all for the answers.

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