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Re: Duplex Scale [Re: KLX-F1] #2740359
05/29/18 10:56 AM
05/29/18 10:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,133
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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KLX-F1,
Thanks for your interest. My US Patent is #9,117,421. There is a thread on PW that include "Fully Tempered Duplex Scale in the title. There is also one on PTG.org Pianotech Forum.

I will be giving a class on FTDS at the PTG Convention in Lancaster Pennsylvania this July. I am bringing a 1979 Chickering 501 that includes it. Hope to see you all there!


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
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Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740366
05/29/18 11:14 AM
05/29/18 11:14 AM
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Oakland
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BDB Offline
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Just keep in mind that a patent is granted on only one basis: that there is no previous patent that covers the same thing. All the patent does is give the grantee the right to defend infringements in court, at which point the patent may be upheld or nullified in the process of disputing the infringement. The patent is not a guarantee that the patented device does anything that it is claimed to do.


Semipro Tech
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740393
05/29/18 12:32 PM
05/29/18 12:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,122
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
BDB,

Though what you say is true, it does not seem necessary to cast doubt as you have UNLESS of course you have personal experience to the contrary, so as to be able to speak thus.

Though I have not as yet seen it in action, I have heard from others who have applied it that it does in fact fix the defects built into the Steinway aliquot arrangement. I am interested to see it perform before I make a judgement.

Planning to be there in Lancaster.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2740402
05/29/18 12:55 PM
05/29/18 12:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 81
Indonesia
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Faiz Offline OP
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Indonesia
Interesting!
Do you have demonstration video or audio sample of piano with FTDS?


Let's help each other... laugh
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: P W Grey] #2740405
05/29/18 01:02 PM
05/29/18 01:02 PM
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Posts: 27,335
Oakland
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I do not know what the supposed defects in the Steinway aliquot arrangement are, so if I heard one of the pianos, I would not be able to tell whether it fixes them or not.

I do know that some of the claims made about it make absolutely no sense mathematically or physically. I also know that the biggest defect that things like this are designed to fix are often the hollow sound in one's wallet. So it is always well to be reminded that "It Ain't Necessarily So!"


Semipro Tech
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740489
05/29/18 05:34 PM
05/29/18 05:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,122
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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New Hampshire
Of course, some of the problems come from restringing. The standard wire used today is significantly stronger and harder than the wire that many if these instruments were originally strung with. That in itself seems to aggravate the front aliquots (in my experience). So of course if the original design was done in reference to the type of wire used then (obviously so), then we would expect some difficulties now. Same as if we strung an American made piano with Asian wire. It's not going to be the same and there might be unintended consequences.

I think Ed' s research is valuable. It is not uncommon for a design "on paper" to be a bit different in practical application. And sometimes it need a to be "re-thought". Of course, whether the re-application is worth the expense of doing so is a question that cannot be truly answered by us here and now. But if it consistently can be proven to have turned a mediocre piano into a fantastic one...well, that is certainly worth digging into IMO.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: BDB] #2740580
05/30/18 12:56 AM
05/30/18 12:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,133
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Seattle, WA USA
If BDB has never heard any "noises' in a piano with a standard duplex scale, he either has an incidence of good fortune equal to the odds of being struck by a meteorite thrown by an extraterrestrial, or he is deaf to the problem.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740585
05/30/18 01:45 AM
05/30/18 01:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,452
Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Surrey, B.C.
Quote
If BDB has never heard any "noises' in a piano with a standard duplex scale, he either has an incidence of good fortune equal to the odds of being struck by a meteorite thrown by an extraterrestrial, or he is deaf to the problem.


I agree.

Except believe that "a meteorite thrown by an extraterrestrial" is the most likely of explanations here!

Norbert grin


www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740588
05/30/18 02:09 AM
05/30/18 02:09 AM
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Posts: 27,335
Oakland
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I have heard noises in pianos with duplex scales. I cannot attribute them to the duplex scale, though, unless it is something that I have been able to alleviate without redesigning the piano.

I think there was someone here with the tag line: If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I have acquired a few more tools in my kit.


Semipro Tech
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740653
05/30/18 10:05 AM
05/30/18 10:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,133
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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BDB, Making in-situ test modifications to an existing standard duplex is how I first tested the precepts used to derive FTDS. If using those design tools is not good enough for you, what do you use?


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2740688
05/30/18 11:35 AM
05/30/18 11:35 AM
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Posts: 27,335
Oakland
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I use whatever works. It is difficult to say precisely what the method is when it depends on what the problem is.

One thing I do know is that if there is a problem that shows up on one sample of a model of piano and does not appear on another, it is not a design issue. That is a logical conclusion. Logic is one of my tools.


Semipro Tech
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: BDB] #2740820
05/30/18 05:47 PM
05/30/18 05:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,133
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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But tolerances vary from piano to piano and are changed over time and drift with time so an intended design at one point is often no longer extant. I employ logic as well, but logic must not be misused to simplify away factors that exist. The foremost tool in logic is Occam's razor.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740836
05/30/18 06:42 PM
05/30/18 06:42 PM
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Posts: 27,335
Oakland
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Occam's Razor says that if someone can do something simply, that someone who needs to do it in a far more complicated way is wrong.


Semipro Tech
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2740839
05/30/18 07:16 PM
05/30/18 07:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,034
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Originally Posted by Faiz
Cheers! From Yogyakarta

I have never been to Yogyakarta. Maybe one day....


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Duplex Scale [Re: BDB] #2740883
05/31/18 12:00 AM
05/31/18 12:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,133
Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
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BDB, Occam's razor says that you test the simplest explanation first. There is much art in deriving the simplest explanation. That art can involve much study of seemingly minor details. With musical instruments, the context of use is often the most difficult part to understand all of the possibilities.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Duplex Scale [Re: Faiz] #2741253
06/01/18 11:01 AM
06/01/18 11:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,122
New Hampshire
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P W Grey Offline
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Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
Another issue with aliquot scales is that they can have false beats as bad or worse than SL strings. Just the nature of the beast.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
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