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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: Candywoman] #2740877
05/30/18 10:09 PM
05/30/18 10:09 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by Candywoman
Not many.

I agree with the "not many", which is also what I said, but of those which started early and were great, there were some that were truly great.

Originally Posted by Candywoman
Even what Mozart wrote at 5, we can do without.

But you are assuming that Mozart would have had the same cognitive development if he had started music lessons at, say, 8yo instead. But is that necessarily true? We know that at some point, this not true. The brain has greater plasticity the younger you are. Few world-class concert pianists started in their teens, for example. In fact, I might speculate quite the opposite. That had Mozart started later, he would no longer be "Mozart". Of course this can't be proven either, but it is no more speculative than the thesis that Mozart would still be "Mozart" had he started later. That's why I am say I'd rather not take the chance, and so I am glad Mozart (or Chopin, Saint-Saƫns, etc) started when they had, because the result was perfect.

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 05/30/18 10:17 PM.

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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: sbsmusik] #2740881
05/30/18 10:53 PM
05/30/18 10:53 PM
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I am totally lost in this thread. As I understand the purpose of the teacher section, it is primarily for teachers to help each other in teaching matters, share information on teaching, and so forth. The issue the OP has asked her peers for ideas on is that there is a transfer student who spent a year with another teacher, and this child learned to only play with the right hand. This may be tricky to correct.

I cannot see how the fact of the Mozart siblings, whether Nannerl or Amadeus, can in any way help with this situation. I assume that both children were taught the treble and bass clef and to use both hands, they were taught by their father so there is no situation of transfer students to learn from.

Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: sbsmusik] #2740890
05/30/18 11:26 PM
05/30/18 11:26 PM
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Keystring it turned into a debate about what age to start kids in piano lol.
I thought from what I gathered, it was common for piano teachers to not take kids until 6 years old, because they saw the amount learned when the kid started earlier didn't give an edge over them if they started later in many cases. Was that not something I heard here? Maybe in a Facebook group?


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: keystring] #2740898
05/30/18 11:46 PM
05/30/18 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I am totally lost in this thread. As I understand the purpose of the teacher section, it is primarily for teachers to help each other in teaching matters, share information on teaching, and so forth. The issue the OP has asked her peers for ideas on is that there is a transfer student who spent a year with another teacher, and this child learned to only play with the right hand. This may be tricky to correct.

I cannot see how the fact of the Mozart siblings, whether Nannerl or Amadeus, can in any way help with this situation. I assume that both children were taught the treble and bass clef and to use both hands, they were taught by their father so there is no situation of transfer students to learn from.

I was only pointing out that contrary to an earlier assertion in this thread, there are children who start as early as 3yo who are very successful adult musicians. And that without certain children starting very young, it's possible we wouldn't have had certain famous historical musicians... (possible, in lower case) And as a consequence, while it might be bad for most young children to start music young, it really shouldn't be made as a blanket statement since there are exceptions. That's all.

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 05/30/18 11:55 PM.

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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: Candywoman] #2740904
05/31/18 12:45 AM
05/31/18 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Candywoman
I asked NOT to be shown videos. They prove nothing. I love Valentina's playing, but she would have been just as good today if she had started at eight. We don't say of famous neurosurgeons, if only they had started their medical studies at 15, they'd be so much farther today. People study things at reasonable ages.

I have heard the five year olds of other teachers play. They look cute. They have no bridge in the hand. Their timing is terrible. They have no finger muscles. They get applause. If that's good enough for a parent, power to you. To me, it's foolhardy.

Start kids when they are ready, and when you feel comfortable starting.

I prefer also to start kids at 6 or 7 most of the time, and not all kids are ready at 6. But I'm most certainly not going to make a rule about it.

At any rate, the topic was about what to do with a young student who only knows the treble clef. I'd like to see that topic returned to.


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2740905
05/31/18 12:46 AM
05/31/18 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I was only pointing out that contrary to an earlier assertion in this thread, there are children who start as early as 3yo who are very successful adult musicians. And that without certain children starting very young, it's possible we wouldn't have had certain famous historical musicians... (possible, in lower case) And as a consequence, while it might be bad for most young children to start music young, it really shouldn't be made as a blanket statement since there are exceptions. That's all.

That is also my position.


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: keystring] #2740910
05/31/18 02:23 AM
05/31/18 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I am totally lost in this thread. As I understand the purpose of the teacher section, it is primarily for teachers to help each other in teaching matters, share information on teaching, and so forth. The issue the OP has asked her peers for ideas on is that there is a transfer student who spent a year with another teacher, and this child learned to only play with the right hand. This may be tricky to correct.

But we don't have enough information, so everything we post here is based on mere speculation and (hopeless) extrapolation.

It would be nice if the OP could give us some updates. Or at least more pertinent information.


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: sbsmusik] #2740944
05/31/18 07:41 AM
05/31/18 07:41 AM
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Keep in mind, what they are showing you may not be what they have learned. Rarely do they bring ALL of their books with them (usually just the easy books or the ones they like)

I will tell them that this is the time to show me what they know and ...crickets.

Mom or Dad will be there play this song, play that song...crickets.

Sometimes it takes a few lessons to learn that they have a left hand and know how to use it.

If they actually do know nothing about the left hand, you may have to get creative. You will either need to find a left-hand book (does one exist?) or do a little writing yourself. Can you make up a left hand to go with the right hand? Can you work on broken chords or Alberti patterns?


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2741032
05/31/18 02:17 PM
05/31/18 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I was only pointing out that contrary to an earlier assertion in this thread, there are children who start as early as 3yo who are very successful adult musicians.


I've known two guys like that. The thing they have in common is that they walked over to the piano and reached up and pressed keys -- before they could see the tops of them -- because they *wanted* to. And they kept on pressing keys until they could play melodies by ear -- and from that very early age.

One of them died of leukemia four years ago, and the other is by far the best musician I've ever known personally. He's the one who refuses to even try to teach, because he's known it all so very long he doesn't know how he learned it.





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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: sbsmusik] #2741052
05/31/18 04:12 PM
05/31/18 04:12 PM
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I would begin with having the students do a lot of improvising with only their left hands.The Piano Safari and Hal Leonard Student Piano Library methods have nice teacher accompaniments to go with student improvisations. Or create your own.

Writing bass-clef-only exercises for the students, as AZN suggested, is a good idea.

Also consider re-working fingering in the book(s) they already used, and have them play the same music with their left hands instead of their right.

Or, as Morodiene suggested, just start over in whatever method you prefer. I'd add in supplemental left-hand improvisations and bass clef exercises you've written to give them additional left hand practice.

On another note, I was curious about what the Piano-K method was about--the philosophy the author espouses, and so on. I didn't find anything about the rationale behind using only right hand at first, but see that the left hand gets added in in the second book. Which is way too late, IMO!

The strange thing, though, is that your students spent almost a whole year in just that first book? There are only 12 songs in each of the three levels! Why did it take 12 months to do 12 songs?!

I wonder if they got started in the second book somewhere along the line and couldn't integrate the left hand after whatever length of time they spent on right hand only?

Something just seems really off about all that.

Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: sbsmusik] #2741088
05/31/18 07:30 PM
05/31/18 07:30 PM
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I had to go look after reading your post. BOOK 1 is only supposed to take 12 WEEKS not months! It is supposed to be 1 song a week. It sounds like more of a homeschool/home learning book than a teacher-guided book. If that took a year, you are going to have bigger problems on your hands than just a missing left hand.


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: NMKeys] #2741100
05/31/18 08:00 PM
05/31/18 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by NMKeys
I had to go look after reading your post. BOOK 1 is only supposed to take 12 WEEKS not months! It is supposed to be 1 song a week. It sounds like more of a homeschool/home learning book than a teacher-guided book. If that took a year, you are going to have bigger problems on your hands than just a missing left hand.


Yes, and when I googled the series, somewhere it said it (Book 1, maybe, or the whole 3-book series?) was intended for 2-4-year-olds! These particular students the OP mentions were probably 5 years old when they started--and were going way slower than the recommended pace for toddlers?!

What a waste on so many levels!

Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: Andamento] #2741158
06/01/18 02:18 AM
06/01/18 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Andamento
Yes, and when I googled the series, somewhere it said it (Book 1, maybe, or the whole 3-book series?) was intended for 2-4-year-olds! These particular students the OP mentions were probably 5 years old when they started--and were going way slower than the recommended pace for toddlers?!

One thing is for certain: At this age, mastery is not guaranteed upon first exposure. A good instructional series would take a cyclic or spiral approach, reiterating the same concepts periodically. Most little ones actually don't mind excessive repetition that would drive us adults crazy beyond belief.

Originally Posted by Andamento
What a waste on so many levels!

Well, for one thing, it's a big money-maker for the publisher. But, on a more practical level, it gives the student a sense of accomplishment, that they actually finished something.

This was my biggest issue with Succeeding at the Piano's first book. It is so dense and L_O_N_G that it takes forever to get through, especially for the slower kids or kids with very little passion for piano to begin with.


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: AZNpiano] #2741414
06/01/18 07:23 PM
06/01/18 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
This was my biggest issue with Succeeding at the Piano's first book. It is so dense and L_O_N_G that it takes forever to get through, especially for the slower kids or kids with very little passion for piano to begin with.


Yes, SATP Preparatory level is very long. Well, their Prep book that came out in 2010 anyway. They've since (copyright 2014) published an All-In-One Approach containing more books, with fewer pages. Whereas what was four books in the original series before getting to Grade 3 (Preparatory, Grade 1, Grade 2A, and Grade 2B), the All in One series has seven books before Grade 3: Preparatory A, Prep B, 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B, and 2C.

I haven't used any of the all-in-one SATP books, but the one free sample I received of Prep A had 52 pages to the original series' Prep book's 88. So at least those newer books are shorter, though all-in-one books can have some drawbacks, too.

Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: sbsmusik] #2743370
06/10/18 07:50 AM
06/10/18 07:50 AM
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There are 2 types of arrangements you can get students to start using their left hand.
1 type involve melodies that juggle between L & R. A student is still technically playing 1 line of music, just that notes to the L or R of the mid-C will be played with the appropriate hand.
The other type is chords. Before even getting into reading the Bass line in a serious way, you can introduce students to playing music with simple chords. An easy piece like "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in C you can add 3 basic chords like C (CEG), F (FAC) & G (GBD). Get the student to play with just the R and then introduce chords a few bars at a time until the student is comfortable filling in the whole song with chords.

After they are comfortable playing with both hands, you can introduce reading the Bass Clef. A student needs to be able to play the R and then the L line separately with accuracy before putting the 2 hands together.

Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: Candywoman] #2743509
06/10/18 06:13 PM
06/10/18 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Candywoman
Yes. It is extremely rare to find a five year old student who is able to handle piano lessons. If they are, it doesn't prove the point that a five year old should take lessons. Just wait til they're older, I say. You will achieve everything just as well. If you just wait til they're older, there is less risk of burnout in the student. They do better in far less time. It saves the teacher the behavioural challenges. It saves the parents money and time. In short, it's unwise to teach four and five year olds piano. And don't show me some youtube videos of four year olds. It doesn't mean a thing. Show me where they are at a much later age like eighteen and compare them to other eighteen year olds. Most students don't go beyond eighteen anyhow. I want to see long term gain. Where are all those prodigies? Do they show up at the university in music? No. I didn't see any of them at my university. Often their parents just want their kid's resume to look good for medical school. Do they play the piano as adults?

I have been rather shocked by the view expressed in this thread that children of five are too young to start piano lessons. I am not a prodigy, I am not a gifted player, I am a moderately competent amateur player. I started lessons at 5 and have been enjoying the piano since then. I cannot see that starting the piano at that age has done me any harm whatsoever. If I had started later I might never have taken to the piano at all.

Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: David-G] #2743513
06/10/18 06:38 PM
06/10/18 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by David-G
I have been rather shocked by the view expressed in this thread that children of five are too young to start piano lessons. I am not a prodigy, I am not a gifted player, I am a moderately competent amateur player. I started lessons at 5 and have been enjoying the piano since then. I cannot see that starting the piano at that age has done me any harm whatsoever. If I had started later I might never have taken to the piano at all.

On the flip side of the coin, I've taught many late-starters (ages 8, 9, and up) who are completely ill-prepared for piano lessons, mentally, physically, or both! Two of the worst students I've ever encountered are cousins who both started piano at age 11.

The best course of action is to refrain from making any generalized statements about age and piano-readiness. It really, really depends on the individual student.


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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: David-G] #2743543
06/10/18 09:22 PM
06/10/18 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by David-G
Originally Posted by Candywoman
Yes. It is extremely rare to find a five year old student who is able to handle piano lessons. If they are, it doesn't prove the point that a five year old should take lessons. Just wait til they're older, I say. You will achieve everything just as well. If you just wait til they're older, there is less risk of burnout in the student. They do better in far less time. It saves the teacher the behavioural challenges. It saves the parents money and time. In short, it's unwise to teach four and five year olds piano. And don't show me some youtube videos of four year olds. It doesn't mean a thing. Show me where they are at a much later age like eighteen and compare them to other eighteen year olds. Most students don't go beyond eighteen anyhow. I want to see long term gain. Where are all those prodigies? Do they show up at the university in music? No. I didn't see any of them at my university. Often their parents just want their kid's resume to look good for medical school. Do they play the piano as adults?

I have been rather shocked by the view expressed in this thread that children of five are too young to start piano lessons. I am not a prodigy, I am not a gifted player, I am a moderately competent amateur player. I started lessons at 5 and have been enjoying the piano since then. I cannot see that starting the piano at that age has done me any harm whatsoever. If I had started later I might never have taken to the piano at all.

Typical starting for lessons also has a cultural component. According to the wife, in the countries of the former Soviet Union, 6yo is quite a usual age to start the standard 7yr music school program. She says the end result of 7 yrs is just that you are considered a "proficient" pianist that can play most any score, so in that case, I'd guess this is probably equivalent to ABRSM 8 or RCM 10, or close to that. Keep in mind that until relatively recent times, school prior to the University/Institute in those countries was also only 10 years and not 12, so this just goes to show there is nothing really absolute about a lot of our western assumptions about children and how much they need this or the other thing, or what age is especially good for something or other.

Perhaps one of our Russian readers can either verify or amend what I just said above.

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 06/10/18 09:24 PM.

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Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: David-G] #2745121
06/17/18 01:39 PM
06/17/18 01:39 PM
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David G,
Your experiences are only anecdotal evidence and would not help a pedagogue understand when to teach a young child piano. You seem to think that since nothing bad happened to you for starting earlier that nothing better could have happened to you if you had started later.

I'm glad you succeeded as an amateur, but have you ever considered that the instruction you got may have limited you in some way? Perhaps you could have been a gifted player with proper instruction. Perhaps your parents selected your teacher based on the fact that she taught five year olds. Supposing they had picked a piano teacher who refused to teach anyone under six? Supposing that teacher had been able to get twice as much out of you in your first year of piano instruction? It follows that teachers who are wise in one decision may be wiser in others.

Re: 6-year-old wasn't taught left hand! [Re: sbsmusik] #2745140
06/17/18 04:00 PM
06/17/18 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sbsmusik
I just signed up two transfer students .....

We've only had a meet-and-greet lesson so far, but I will see them again next week...

Update? How did it go? smile Any insights yet for teachers who may run into this at some point?

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