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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: 8 Octaves] #2702980
01/07/18 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
Hmm... than, why do they say "limitless" only about piano sounds and 384 about the others?


I think when this generations of Roland DP came out, it only said "limitless", but now I see they have backtracked and added 384 for "other". As I said, in my post, nothing is limitless, but it might as well be for you if it's beyond your capabilities. Apparently, Roland must believe 384 is beyond anyone's capabilities, so they put limitless for solo piano but if you start using multiple instruments, then 384 isn't enough. This leads me to think that they say it is "limitless" for solo piano, but it is actually 384 as well. That would be my guess.


I think it's much more straight forward than that. Unlimited is for their fully modelled piano and 384 is for the rompler voices. Nothing by to do with purported playing capability.

Last edited by toddy; 01/07/18 07:42 PM.

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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: anotherscott] #2702981
01/07/18 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
I was thinking about digital pianos, but even in other keyboards, I don't remember ever seeing a way to alter note-stealing algorithms (a very particular kind of voice priority). There are other kinds of voice priorities I have seen, though, like reserving a certain amount of polyphony for a certain sound in a multi-timbral instrument, or highest/lowest/last note priority on a synth.


Oh right. I think I'm probably remembering choices such as last/first note priority. It was nothing very complex, I don't suppose.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: anotherscott] #2702982
01/07/18 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Also, though, polyphony doesn't necessarily mean "how many notes can sound at once." Korg Kross had polyphony of 80 on paper, but you could hear solo piano notes drop out after 20. Since they apparently use four instances of polyphony for every key press, even 256 would create a limit of 64 ringing notes. That is, a pedal-down chromatic scale from bottom to top would probably start dropping low notes before you got to the top!


Wow, that's really daft of Korg to state their specs so high when it's actually 4 times lower.

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: toddy] #2702983
01/07/18 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
I think it's much more straight forward than that. Unlimited is for their fully modelled piano and 384 is for the rompler voices. Nothing by to do with purported playing capability.


That makes sense....

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: 8 Octaves] #2702990
01/07/18 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Wow, that's really daft of Korg to state their specs so high when it's actually 4 times lower.

It isn't 4 times lower; it's that the best piano sounds use 4 waveforms to create each note. Other sounds, (wurli, electric grand, marimba, vibes) employ only one waveform per note, so then the polyphony of 120 does mean you could initiate 120 note strikes before it would have to steal anything (or, perhaps more realistically, 60 note strikes if you layered two of them).

This is commonly how polyphony works. It's not typically the number of keys you can play, it's the number of sounds the instrument can generate. A stereo piano creates at least two sounds for every keypress; and it can be more if they're employing resonances, velocity layer crossfading, pedal noises... to say nothing of, say, layering a string sound.

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2702997
01/07/18 08:36 PM
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Kind of seems like marketing jargon. Let’s be honest, when and what piece would ever demand more than 256 polyphony? Heck, even 128 to be honest.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2703000
01/07/18 08:43 PM
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To sum it all up ...

Ignore the specs. They're bullcrap.
Ignore the froo-froo marketing jargon. It's bullcrap.

Just play the piano. If it sounds good, it is good.

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: MacMacMac] #2703002
01/07/18 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
To sum it all up ...

Ignore the specs. They're bullcrap.
Ignore the froo-froo marketing jargon. It's bullcrap.

Just play the piano. If it sounds good, it is good.

Agreed.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoZac] #2703013
01/07/18 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PianoZac
Kind of seems like marketing jargon. Let’s be honest, when and what piece would ever demand more than 256 polyphony? Heck, even 128 to be honest.

Well as you can see in the Korg example above, the C1's 120 polyphony is not enough to sustain more than 30 notes, so it's not entirely pointless to have more. But realistically, strictly for piano playing, the polyphony spec is not very important. First, because other things (sound, action) are much more important. Second, the number doesn't tell you much anyway, since it doesn't even tell you how many notes you can play before you'd hear drop-outs... you can't tell that except by trying, because, as discussed, different pianos use up polyphony at different rates, and also have different note-stealing algorithms. People don't seem to complain about dropped notes on Nord Piano 1/2/3, which have only 40-note polyphony in stereo. (And I've mentioned before how I could create a dropped note on a Yamaha MOX8 piano sound with its 64 polyphony, while the same passage created no audible dropped note on a Yamaha NP30 with just 32.)

Polyphony is a bit more of an issue when you're talking about usage beyond straight piano. Start layering sounds and playing sequenced backing tracks, and then it's more important. But even then, the number itself can be deceiving.

The bottom line is, as usual, buy what sounds and feels best, and has the features you need. There is virtually no on-paper spec that matters as much as that. Maybe travel weight. ;-)

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2703019
01/07/18 09:34 PM
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Spot on!, Mr. 'nother.

To paraphrase ... pay attention to the results (how it sounds).
And don't be concerned about the causes (polyphony or otherwise).

And especially do not heed the bogus/meaningless claims about those causes.
And don't try to build a logical argument upon a false premise.

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: anotherscott] #2703089
01/08/18 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by 8 Octaves
Wow, that's really daft of Korg to state their specs so high when it's actually 4 times lower.

It isn't 4 times lower; it's that the best piano sounds use 4 waveforms to create each note.

Doesn't matter. The term "polyphony" has only one meaning and if Korg is using it, their spec sheet is wrong.

Playing just one note after another may use four "DSP channels" or "waveforms" or whatever each time, but it is NOT polyphony. A polyphon piece is one which has multiple notes (usually of different pitch) sounding at the same time. Notes, not waveforms.

A note is pretty well defined in the MIDI standard, so we do not need to bother with vendor-specific interpretations at all. Send 65 Note On messages to a Korg, then 64 Note Off messages and if the remaining note is not sounding anymore, the synth doesn't have more than 64 note polyphony. Simple as that.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2703095
01/08/18 07:24 AM
01/08/18 07:24 AM
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Every time there's a discussion on polyphony I'm forced to tell my story. smile I owned a Yamaha GranTouch hybrid before I traded it in on an N3. The GranTouch had 30 note polyphony and I never noticed any notes that were dropped or cut short.

I've also made my living just from playing and might demand more from a keyboard than most.

I think some guys here get caught up in numbers and forget to use their ears.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: Dave Horne] #2703103
01/08/18 08:08 AM
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Yes to this. It's the results that matter, not the specs.
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Every time there's a discussion on polyphony I'm forced to tell my story. smile I owned a Yamaha GranTouch hybrid before I traded it in on an N3. The GranTouch had 30 note polyphony and I never noticed any notes that were dropped or cut short.

I've also made my living just from playing and might demand more from a keyboard than most.

I think some guys here get caught up in numbers and forget to use their ears.

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2703128
01/08/18 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
The term "polyphony" has only one meaning and if Korg is using it, their spec sheet is wrong....

The spec sheet more precisely says "Maximum Polyphony: 120 voices (max)" which is accurate. It can produce 120 sounds at once, which can be allocated different ways. If pressing a key generates a single sound, you can play 120 notes before they're all used up. If pressing a key generates two sounds at once, you'd be able to play 60 notes. If generating four sounds at once, that goes down to 30. Five sounds per keypress? Goes down to 24 notes. Most other manufacturers do this the same way. But what you're thinking of as a sound may or may not correspond to what the keyboard considers a sound, which I'll get back to.

Originally Posted by JoeT
Playing just one note after another may use four "DSP channels" or "waveforms" or whatever each time, but it is NOT polyphony.
DSP and waveform are entirely different things. But each sound that comes out of a sample-based instrument begins life as a recorded waveform.

So a simple, mono piano sound would use one instance of polyphony for each note (playing back one recorded waveform), and that would work as you expect, with a polyphony of 120 permitting you to play 120 notes before something would drop. Presumably, you understand that if you layered, say, a simple violin sound (so that you are playing back a piano sound AND a violin sound with each key press), you would be using up two instances of polyphony with each note you played, since the keyboard is generating two sounds (playing back two different waveforms) with every key press. Well, if you are triggering a stereo piano sample instead of a mono one--meaning that what's coming out of the left channel is a different sound (a different recorded waveform) than what's coming out of the right channel (if they were identical, it would be mono)--you are similarly using up two instances of polyphony with each note you play, as the keyboard generates two sounds with every key press, even if those two sounds are much more similar to each other than, say, the piano sound and a violin sound.

Sometimes polyphony works the other way, too, to your advantage so to speak. A string ensemble may be a recording of, say, 4 violins playing a note at once, yet playing a note does not use 4 instances of polyphony (it may use just one if it's a mono recording, two if stereo). So you can see, what music theory tells you is one instance of polyphony doesn't need to align with what you hear out of a keyboard. You may press a key and hear one instrument playing one note yet be using more than one instance of polyphony (as in a stereo piano), or you may press a a key and hear many instruments playing many notes (think orchestral hit!) yet still be using only one instance of polyphony.

If you layer a sampled stereo piano sound with a sampled stereo string sound (which, remember, means you are playing two different piano recordings and two different string recordings all at the same time), each note you play will use up four instances of polyphony, as the keyboard is playing back four recorded sounds/waveforms with each keypress.

And it is possible to use even more than two instances of polyphony per note on the piano sound alone, if a manufacturer is generating more than two sounds per keypress in their attempt to create a more accurate simulation (employing resonances or velocity crossfading, perhaps). In this case, Korg has multiple stereo piano sounds, some use 2 instances of polyphony per keypress, some use 4, as listed in their manual. Their electric grand is mono, and uses just one. So how many notes can you play at once with these piano sounds? 120, or 60, or 30, depending on which piano sound you select and therefore how many sounds/waveforms the piano needs to reproduce for each key you press. If you layer another sound, it will go down from there. But Korg's spec of 120 maximum reflects this accurately.

Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2703299
01/08/18 08:11 PM
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Amen.

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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: Bambers] #2739102
05/24/18 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Bambers
Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33

Hmm... than, why do they say "limitless" only about piano sounds and 384 about the others?


If Rolands vpiano engine is simply simulating the relevant number of resonators on a fixed basis in its hardware it's less that the polyphony is 'limitless' and more the concept of it simply doesn't apply at all. A repeated note does not become a second or third voice.

The gp607s other sounds are sample based hence a limit. Here repeated notes do become additional voices and so even where the advertised limit is above 88 it can still be reached.

All that said, in the vast majority of current DPs I'm not aware of any complaints about dropped notes etc.


I do notice some polyphony issues while playing the V-Piano on certain songs I've played where it appears to drol a note and doesn't behave or sound like an acoustic would. However it is rare when it happens. Also it is random when it happens.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: Kona_V-Piano] #2739125
05/24/18 12:11 PM
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I do notice some polyphony issues while playing the V-Piano on certain songs I've played where it appears to drol a note and doesn't behave or sound like an acoustic would. However it is rare when it happens. Also it is random when it happens.

It would be great if you could record these events and share them with the rest of us.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: Dave Horne] #2739127
05/24/18 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
It would be great if you could record these events and share them with the rest of us.

It is rare when it happens. Also it is random when it happens.

......Could be tricky.


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Re: Roland's unlimited polyphony? [Re: PianoStartsAt33] #2739413
05/25/18 01:28 PM
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I tried something out on a Kawai CA67, playing all the lowest octave notes together (13 notes) then trilling on a few notes at the top of the keyboard, eventually all of the low notes bar the very lowest one will cut out. So if you sustain a bass note and a chord with the pedal, and then jam away on a melody, eventually the chord will cut out but the bass note will remain. Not a very common scenario but not outwith the realm of possibility.

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