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A look at attitude and practice #2738993
05/23/18 06:24 PM
05/23/18 06:24 PM
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Finfan Online content OP
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I came across this image on line and I find it rather inspiring. Hopefully I'm not the 1000th person to post it.

https://thepracticeofpractice.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/talentmindsets_poster_6-5x11.pdf


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A lack of talent does not stop you from learning piano. It just takes longer and you have to work harder.

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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2738999
05/23/18 06:59 PM
05/23/18 06:59 PM
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It's great, apart from I would raise a question as to whether talent is "grown". I think talent is set, as a measure of potential. What is grown is "ability", and this is grown by talent x work.

I don't think one can increase or decrease one's talent, and the reason I say this is because talent is a natural aptitude.

Apart from that, it's a good chart.

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739002
05/23/18 07:34 PM
05/23/18 07:34 PM
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Didn't you post this same thing in another thread already?


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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739003
05/23/18 07:36 PM
05/23/18 07:36 PM
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I like the seeking challenges and keep trying part. The talent argument will last forever but we won’t.


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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739027
05/23/18 11:03 PM
05/23/18 11:03 PM
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I have a great talent for self delusion smirk


Problems with piano are 90% psychological, the other 10% is in your head.

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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: earlofmar] #2739033
05/24/18 12:18 AM
05/24/18 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by earlofmar
I have a great talent for self delusion smirk

And I envy you for that. I think it is something required for making art.

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739048
05/24/18 04:59 AM
05/24/18 04:59 AM
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The usual corporate slogans of this era... "you can do it!, work! work! work!" Complete nonsense. Life's too short to waste it with cruel unrealistic expectations. Enjoy every day while you're alive because one day you'll die and there's nothing after this, just a reminder.

We can change our attitude, not our aptitude. We can have a true talent at something and not be aware of it though. But ultimately, any feeling of happiness will come mainly from our family and/or social relationships though, not through "achievements" of any kind.


Started January 2017. Working on Alfred Level 2 and Fundamental Keys. Yamaha P-115.
Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739060
05/24/18 06:32 AM
05/24/18 06:32 AM
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>The usual corporate slogans of this era... "you can do it!, work! work! work!" Complete nonsense.

Why do you say this? I think working deliberately to improve helps a lot getting where you want to be.

>Enjoy every day while you're alive
Well sure. But why is this in conflict with work?

>because one day you'll die and there's nothing after this, just a reminder
How do you know? And if you're right, why bother?

>But ultimately, any feeling of happiness will come mainly from our family and/or social relationships though, not through "achievements" of any kind

I don't agree. Happiness is a personal experience, has nothing to do with relationships. Hermits can also be happy.


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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: wouter79] #2739067
05/24/18 07:06 AM
05/24/18 07:06 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by wouter79
Originally Posted by ID5894
The usual corporate slogans of this era... "you can do it!, work! work! work!" Complete nonsense.

Why do you say this? I think working deliberately to improve helps a lot getting where you want to be.

BTW, in the short time I've been visiting this forum, this topic has already been discussed independently at least twice, in just the last week.


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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: ID5894] #2739074
05/24/18 07:44 AM
05/24/18 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by ID5894
... Enjoy every day while you're alive because one day you'll die and there's nothing after this, just a reminder.


A reminder?

I thought divinity was still a big question mark and no official conclusion. If I'm wrong about this and you know how it all works, please explain.

Ageless Wisdom will remind you that you get to come back again and again and again, until you get it right. I'm fairly certain I didn't get very much right in this lifetime, so I'm planting as many seeds as I can so that next time when I come back I'll be more talented thumb

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: wouter79] #2739075
05/24/18 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by wouter79

>because one day you'll die and there's nothing after this, just a reminder
How do you know? And if you're right, why bother?

I think his point was don't bother, just live smile

Happiness however, if even needed, is generated purely within oneself. You do not really need any specific means to be happy. And if you do not have that skill, no amount of social relationships or achievements will get you there...

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Greener] #2739076
05/24/18 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Greener
Originally Posted by ID5894
... Enjoy every day while you're alive because one day you'll die and there's nothing after this, just a reminder.


A reminder?

I thought divinity was still a big question mark and no official conclusion.

Only for those who do not know wink

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: wouter79] #2739084
05/24/18 08:21 AM
05/24/18 08:21 AM
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England
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Originally Posted by Greener

I thought divinity was still a big question mark and no official conclusion.


Divinity is a man-made concept as far as anyone so far in History can tell. It is clear on what side the burden of proof is, as a negative cannot be proven.


Originally Posted by wouter79

I don't agree. Happiness is a personal experience, has nothing to do with relationships. Hermits can also be happy.


How many hermits do you know? A rule can have exceptions, but we're designed to connect with each other. Avoiding this is just our psychological self-defence when there's a sense of social failure, like the fox and the grapes. It also depends in the culture, historically some societies have been "designed" to be more socially-inhibited, as they're easier to rule, than others.


Started January 2017. Working on Alfred Level 2 and Fundamental Keys. Yamaha P-115.
Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739109
05/24/18 09:58 AM
05/24/18 09:58 AM
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I’m a hermit and happy but not sure how it relates to piano. Interesting discussion.


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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739114
05/24/18 10:26 AM
05/24/18 10:26 AM
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I'm way more happy when playing and practicing the piano than in social gathering. I'm single and don't want to be involved in a relationship.

Saying the true happiness comes from relationship is a personal perspective. Each individual is different. Relationship is important, yes, but the importance is different for each individual. To be happy, I need to do at least 5 hours of music each week, but I can see my friends only once a month and I'll still be happy. Ergo the person saying this is a very individual matters, depending of your values in life. I'm no hermit, but I have a big "bubble" and need a lot of "me" time. Piano time is part of my "me" time.


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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2739115
05/24/18 10:27 AM
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Arizona USA
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Didn't you post this same thing in another thread already?


Ack! You're right I did. It's heck when you get old and senile! smirk


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A lack of talent does not stop you from learning piano. It just takes longer and you have to work harder.

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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739121
05/24/18 10:47 AM
05/24/18 10:47 AM
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The way I think of someone with talent is that he/she is a young virtuoso who learned to play challenging pieces before age 10. These people are destined for a career in music. Someone like the English piano / violin virtuoso Alma Deutscher who also wrote an opera "Cinderella" at age 9.

For the rest of us we learned to play music at an older age out of interest. Personally my sister & I both tried a few piano lessons when we were 5. The parents didn't think we had talent and stopped paying for more lessons. In the meantime, picked up playing violin. Many years later decided to get a keyboard for learning. Got enrolled in a group class for adults. People in the group all have proficiency playing piano at some level but having a career in music is not what we are after. Some of us are working in other fields and some retired already. We play music for interest so learning a Chopin piece in a month instead of a week isn't an issue. Some are better at sight-reading while others like myself rely more on memory to get through different pieces.

There are a several people in my family who passed their conservatory exams before graduating from high school... people you'd call talented. They pursued other careers and no longer play piano. Meanwhile I'm going through the weekly ritual of playing scales, doing warm-up exercises, working on a few pieces at a time starting with slow practice to get all the notes and making recordings. There are kids who get enrolled in a music program at a young age by their parents to learn about discipline. The end of the day no matter how much talent a person has, if he/she does not have any interest playing music, that person would not touch an instrument again after he/she stopped taking lessons.

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: thepianoplayer416] #2739122
05/24/18 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Someone like the English piano / violin virtuoso Alma Deutscher who also wrote an opera "Cinderella" at age 9.

And it's a darn good opera too. But I doubt her particular "talent" is limited to music. For example, the libretto for Cinderella is in German. Ignoring for the moment that it is an opera, what 9-year old native-English speaker would think about publishing something or putting on a professional performance in the German language? I'm sure her IQ (or whatever measure of intellect one might choose) is through the roof...


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Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: ID5894] #2739132
05/24/18 11:35 AM
05/24/18 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ID5894
... we're designed to connect with each other. Avoiding this is just our psychological self-defence when there's a sense of social failure


"Money can't buy you happiness, but it is sure nice to be able to pull your Yacht up next to it.
"

I would still like the Yacht, but not likely I will ever have it. Relationships don't make you happy any more then the Yacht does. Not being in one does not mean avoiding one. Being in one doesn't mean happiness.

Happiness is just state of mind not dependent and wanting of anything. Isn't that why Buddha went out on his own ?

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2739280
05/25/18 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Someone like the English piano / violin virtuoso Alma Deutscher who also wrote an opera "Cinderella" at age 9.

And it's a darn good opera too. But I doubt her particular "talent" is limited to music. For example, the libretto for Cinderella is in German. Ignoring for the moment that it is an opera, what 9-year old native-English speaker would think about publishing something or putting on a professional performance in the German language? I'm sure her IQ (or whatever measure of intellect one might choose) is through the roof...



Sure, but her name should give you some hints in a certain direction. "Deutscher" means "German" in German ...

Last edited by ghosthand; 05/25/18 04:15 AM.
Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: ghosthand] #2739349
05/25/18 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ghosthand
Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Someone like the English piano / violin virtuoso Alma Deutscher who also wrote an opera "Cinderella" at age 9.

And it's a darn good opera too. But I doubt her particular "talent" is limited to music. For example, the libretto for Cinderella is in German. Ignoring for the moment that it is an opera, what 9-year old native-English speaker would think about publishing something or putting on a professional performance in the German language? I'm sure her IQ (or whatever measure of intellect one might choose) is through the roof...



Sure, but her name should give you some hints in a certain direction. "Deutscher" means "German" in German ...


I believe she was born in the UK, but has parents who have Israeli connections - I believe she speaks some Hebrew. I am not aware of German connections, but I don't think if there are any its related to her name. I don't think she wrote the lyrics for the opera - I am pretty sure I read somewhere that someone else had done those (although maybe in collaboration). Remember there is also an English version of this opera that was performed in San Diego around Christmas time.

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2739370
05/25/18 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Slothrop, Tyrone
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Someone like the English piano / violin virtuoso Alma Deutscher who also wrote an opera "Cinderella" at age 9.

And it's a darn good opera too. But I doubt her particular "talent" is limited to music. For example, the libretto for Cinderella is in German. Ignoring for the moment that it is an opera, what 9-year old native-English speaker would think about publishing something or putting on a professional performance in the German language? I'm sure her IQ (or whatever measure of intellect one might choose) is through the roof...


Sure. But her skill at relating to other 9-year-olds might be down in the basement.


I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: malkin] #2739377
05/25/18 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Sure. But her skill at relating to other 9-year-olds might be down in the basement.

But from the videos I saw of her last year, her abilities to relate to (and even to instruct) adults appears to just fine! And after all, isn't the vaster percentage of one's life spent as an adult than as a child? (I say this as one who spent their undergraduate days in the graduate school library because I couldn't relate to the other undergraduates who were all about 5-8 years older than me at the time, yet I feel that ultimately, this didn't have a lasting negative effect on me.)

Last edited by Slothrop, Tyrone; 05/25/18 10:04 AM.

across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739574
05/26/18 02:09 AM
05/26/18 02:09 AM
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There are a lot of parents who enroll their kids in a Suzuki music program. The slogan is "Every child has talent for music" and a child's musical talent can be nurtured by love.

Have to admit there are some families who brought up very talented people. Once came across the 5 Browns on TV playing Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" in NYC. They are members of the Brown family, all Classical trained pianists. And then there are the Masons. Every sibling plays an instrument (piano, cello, violin) as solo or together. 1 who plays the cello got invited to perform at the royal wedding of Prince Harry & Meghan. Most of us having a practice routine of 3h/day for the next 10 years would never be playing at the level these virtuosos achieved before age 10.


Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: thepianoplayer416] #2739582
05/26/18 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Most of us having a practice routine of 3h/day for the next 10 years would never be playing at the level these virtuosos achieved before age 10.

What you are saying seems to be the exact opposite of the point of the chart presented at the start of the post. I skimmed through the video that you posted, until I found an actual point of substance - what these youngsters actually do. You see that they commute quite a distance in order to study in a place where presumably there are very good teachers giving excellent guidance.

So let's take your statement. The practice routine of these kids has the backing of guidance of excellent teachers, and they apply themselves to what they have been taught, with the full support of their parents. If you practice while not receiving any instruction, or poor or mediocre or so-so instruction and "guidance", your practice will not be that effective. To your statement: do most of us practice 3h/day, on any day, let alone every day? If we do so, how many of us have excellent guidance?

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: keystring] #2739589
05/26/18 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
What you are saying seems to be the exact opposite of the point of the chart presented at the start of the post. I skimmed through the video that you posted, until I found an actual point of substance - what these youngsters actually do. You see that they commute quite a distance in order to study in a place where presumably there are very good teachers giving excellent guidance.

So let's take your statement. The practice routine of these kids has the backing of guidance of excellent teachers, and they apply themselves to what they have been taught, with the full support of their parents. If you practice while not receiving any instruction, or poor or mediocre or so-so instruction and "guidance", your practice will not be that effective. To your statement: do most of us practice 3h/day, on any day, let alone every day? If we do so, how many of us have excellent guidance?


Have to agree you made very good points. Talent in something like art or music is something many of us can develop but only if we have an interest and is goal-oriented. In my younger days I went with the family to listen to a few orchestra performances. The most memorable was Beethoven's Symphony #9 from the intro to the final chorus. Like everybody else in the audience we were moved by the playing and singing. However, I had no ambition to perform that piece with an orchestra. The closest I got to playing it on violin was the first year of taking violin class in high school. The teacher made an arrangement of the melody for the Strings (violin, viola, cello & bass) class. The piece we performed for the parents at the year end concert lasted less than 2 minutes, not even a movement out of the symphony.

I was enrolled in music class alongside my sister playing violin. We had 1 violin at home and another one on loan from our high school. We played identical repertoire most of the time. Back then we moved along as fast as the teacher thought we should be (one 18th century suite & 1 exercise piece per week) which wasn't very much. The teacher would assign "Minuet" from the Mozart Eine kleine Nachtmusik, "March" from a Handel Suite, "Minuet in G" from Notebook for Anna M Bach, etc. (the standard stuff). After 5 years, neither of us achieved a consistent enough playing level and we stopped taking lessons.
1. Playing the same pieces we should be able to pick up each other's mistake and get better -> not the case.
2. Having 2 instruments in the home allowed us to play duets and would move us to a higher level of playing by keeping each other in tune and on the beat -> we never played together once.
3. Being goal oriented -> not the case. We just went along with the assigned repertoire but never had the motivation to get ahead like let's learn Schubert "Ave Maria" or Beethoven Romance in F, op. 50 (never).

Take the example of Sujari Britt who is a young cello virtuoso: she listened to a Yo-yo Ma performance on TV and fell in love with the cello. Her parents started her with the piano and switched to the cello. Within a short time her teacher said Sujari already learned everything she had to teach. Sujari continued with another teacher and eventually got accepted into a prestigious music school in NYC. Having a good teacher & developing a person's talent go hand in hand. There are many music teachers who can teach up to an intermediate level. If you want to go further, you have to get a teacher who are at the concert performance level. And you have to prove that you can play consistently at that level before the teacher would take you. Many students can play "Minuet in G" from the Notebook for Anna M Bach by Christian Petzold. Does this makes a person talented? It's a good start but there is still a long way to go.

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: Finfan] #2739593
05/26/18 06:36 AM
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Thepianoplayer416 - an interesting conversation. smile

Some contrasts in our background:
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416

In my younger days I went with the family to listen to a few orchestra performances...... The closest I got to playing it on violin was the first year of taking violin class in high school.

..... I was enrolled in music class alongside my sister playing violin.

I was not taken to any performances, and when I turned 12, my parents decided to become farmers in a Green Acres mood (I used to watch the show with some irony). They had their records, and would put on classical music, so I did hear it. There were no music lessons on any instrument, ever. I was given a recorder, mouth organ, a little electric organ that got replaced by a piano when the "farmer period" started. A grandmother sent over her 1905 (publ.) music from Germany -- the sonatinas and Czerny I write about. I taught myself everything - no teacher, no pianist to watch. I was very keen.

To help with income once they were farmers my mother cooked for an American cottaging family in the summer. I found out when I was 60 that these Americans had heard me play self-taught, and had offered to send me to a conservatory, where they would pay for room, board, and tuition. My parents thought it was "not necessary" and so I kept trying on my own. The piano disappeared when I was 19, and I got a piano again 35 years later. By then I knew the importance of technique etc., and also figured (correctly) how messed up my "technique" was.
Quote
Back then we moved along as fast as the teacher thought we should be ...... After 5 years, neither of us achieved a consistent enough playing level and we stopped taking lessons.

I read the whole thing even if I just quoted the outer edges. Reading between the lines: you got the common so-so type lessons which focus on repertoire, going through pieces etc. rather than the things that would create musicianship. Of course your playing level would stay stagnated! I figured this out after several years of lessons on violin as an adult, which also suffered from a strange glass ceiling and even deterioration after a year. What was missing were things like real technique, learning what is underneath music and notation, and working with all of these things. You might call them the "base elements".
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There are many music teachers who can teach up to an intermediate level. If you want to go further, you have to get a teacher who are at the concert performance level.

Here's the problem with that: "Advanced" performance depends on having good control and understanding of the elements that go into music: physically, orally, and theoretical. These elements belong to the beginner stages. The beginner teacher is not held in high regard, and too many think that if they don't know much yet, they should teach beginners, because the notes themselves are easy. Yet the skill foundations are critical! At random:
- playing loud and soft effectively so as to not tie up your hands in effort for the "loud": doing so to bring out voices by contrast
- a solid basic pedal technique where you truly coordinate hands and feet, and learn to listen to a note's sustain, its degree of blending into the next note, which can be done even in chord practice

These two things alone will bring tremendous subtlety and musicality into even a simple piece. Add to this an ability to read music basically; learning to take the music apart for effective practice so you know how to practice; an ability to read music for understanding and interpretation later.

There is depth versus quantity. Your simple "Minuet in G" has layers of discovery. But often it is taught just for the notes.

The "advanced level teacher" has to have something to work with. How do you decide to bring out shadings in a piece through various means, if your student never got basic control of touch, pedal, etc., or learned to analyze and read music in the earlier stages? This starts at the beginning - or should - but often doesn't. That's what I discovered. smile

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: thepianoplayer416] #2739619
05/26/18 10:58 AM
05/26/18 10:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,891
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malkin Offline
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malkin  Offline
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*sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
...came across the 5 Browns on TV playing Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" in NYC. They are members of the Brown family, all Classical trained pianists...


Pretty far from a model family.


I've been trying to change my signature quote for weeks.

Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: malkin] #2739620
05/26/18 11:03 AM
05/26/18 11:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,257
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,257
Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
...came across the 5 Browns on TV playing Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" in NYC. They are members of the Brown family, all Classical trained pianists...


Pretty far from a model family.

...and model=typical or model=ideal? I think the word "model" is relative and cultural. In my culture when I was growing up, my parents would constantly point to this one family with 5 daughters and no sons, where all 5 had become medical doctors. The point being that the model in this case was not the children, but the parents and how they supposedly "nurtured" and "raised" these girls - in that subcultural viewpoint, the parents there were "model parents", sacrifice and nurturing their children (again, "nurture" here being culturally relative)!

Last edited by Slothrop, Tyrone; 05/26/18 11:08 AM.

across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: A look at attitude and practice [Re: malkin] #2739623
05/26/18 11:22 AM
05/26/18 11:22 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,270
Canada
keystring Offline
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keystring  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,270
Canada
Originally Posted by malkin
Pretty far from a model family.

Can you explain what you mean by this? What is a "model family", for example? And how are they far from it? Does this mean that families are supposed to be a certain way (the model) and they fall away from that? (I'm genuinely lost).

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