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Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2739521
05/25/18 07:08 PM
05/25/18 07:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 3,770
Ireland (ex England)
Z
zrtf90 Offline
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Z

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Posts: 3,770
Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted by monkeeys
zrtf90, when you write “using 4” do you mean 1,2,3,4, thumb under, 1,2,3,, etc?
Yes. The most common pattern is 1 on the white keys, 3 on the the black keys and 2 on F and C (RH).

The Thalberg fingering uses the regular diatonic scale pattern 123, 1234 beginning on D or E and it repeates over two octaves. The English pattern uses 13, 123, 1234, 123 beginning on D (4th on A#/Bb) and is the same each octave. The one in the Beethoven sonatina starts with a group of four and thereafter could be the Thalberg or the English system.


Richard
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Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: keystring] #2739533
05/25/18 08:42 PM
05/25/18 08:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,992
*sigh* Salt Lake City
malkin Offline
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malkin  Offline
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Philip_Johnston
happy to field any questions.

I took this seriously, so I asked some questions. Was it meant seriously?


I think he responds through his website.

In that case I wasted my time writing here. And those questions remain open here. Let's hope that is not the case. smile


How long would it take you to copy and paste your questions to his web site?
Such a waste of (what?) 60 seconds?

Contact him here:

http://insidemusicteaching.com/contact/


Enough is as good as a feast.

Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: malkin] #2739534
05/25/18 08:50 PM
05/25/18 08:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,458
Canada
keystring Offline
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Originally Posted by malkin

How long would it take you to copy and paste your questions to his web site?
Such a waste of (what?) 60 seconds?


I may not have been clear. There is a discussion here, on PianoWorld, and the gentleman has posted here, in response. It doesn't do anybody here any good for the discussion to be brought over to that web-site. When he said he was ready to answer questions, while writing in this forum, I naturally assumed he would be responding here. I know that people get busy, so I'll wait a bit for that to response to come. I took the offer in good faith.

To answer about "waste of time": If someone offers to answer questions, and one spends time writing out some questions, and there will be no answer, then that is time wasted asking the questions. smile

Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2739541
05/25/18 09:41 PM
05/25/18 09:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 81
P
Philip_Johnston Offline
Full Member
Philip_Johnston  Offline
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P

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 81
Just answering an earlier question about how far being self taught can take you:

I'm a big fan of self-powered learning—YouTube means you can effectively sit in on thousands of lessons, and you can learn a lot from the right books. However videos and books cannot see you, and will not warn you if your technique is heading in a self-limiting or dangerous direction.

In short, there's no substitute for actually sitting with an expert who can give you feedback. I don't advocate being completely self taught for piano any more than I would being self taught for martial arts or dentistry.

Whether you need traditional weekly lessons though is a different story. If your preference is to be self taught, then one workable path might be to have a mentor that you meet with every month or two, and then lets you work independently in the meantime.

With all this in mind, when I was writing Scales Bootcamp, my assumption was that the person using it would have a teacher somewhere in their self-improvement chain. Otherwise, all those hours of work might actually be simply cementing a bad technical approach to playing that will prove very, very hard to undo later.

Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Philip_Johnston] #2739585
05/26/18 04:33 AM
05/26/18 04:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,458
Canada
keystring Offline
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Philip, perfect! Thank you for your well thought out answer. smile
Originally Posted by Philip_Johnston
With all this in mind, when I was writing Scales Bootcamp, my assumption was that the person using it would have a teacher somewhere in their self-improvement chain. Otherwise, all those hours of work might actually be simply cementing a bad technical approach to playing that will prove very, very hard to undo later.

I had thought it might be written for teachers; there were clues. One expects that a decent teacher will be teaching his students how to play, what kind of physical motions to use, and also monitor and guide what is going on. But that teacher might like to have a set of ideas for making the practice of scales interesting, or to reinforce particular things that he has just taught. The 2nd and larger half of any lesson is the practising that the student does at home. I imagine this teacher assigning those exercises from the book that are ideal for this student, after this lesson, at this stage of the student's journey. This imaginary teacher will also "customize" the exercise, by telling the student how he wants it to be practised, hopefully watching how it is being done in the studio, before sending the student home.

For your last sentence: When I first had a piano a few years ago, I could not get a teacher right away. I got the book by Cooke on scales and arpeggios, and practised diligently - and I thought carefully - for about 10 months until I noticed a numbness in one hand. I had followed Cooke's advice to "snap the thumb under", and there was no looseness or flex in my hand or wrist. Once I had a teacher, I started to learn "every joint everywhere must be free to move, with nothing ever locked up", starting with chords where this was easier to access. But because of my diligent first scales practice, it took years to be able to even approach scales, because my hands would habitually go into what they first learned. The task of unlearning and relearning has not been pleasant, and it's made things a lot harder. And I was being careful when I did that damage!

The one book of yours, which I discovered during the self-taught phase, Practiceopedia - this one I think actually can be good for any student, even self-taught. The idea of writing different skills on different paper hats, and practising toward that skill, then another skill, rather than trying to master everything at once - that's a solid idea that can't go wrong.

On the side topic:
Quote
I'm a big fan of self-powered learning—YouTube means you can effectively sit in on thousands of lessons, and you can learn a lot from the right books. However videos and books cannot see you, and will not warn you if your technique is heading in a self-limiting or dangerous direction.

There are variants of on-line learning these days where there is actual feedback from a teacher. This ranges from one-on-one lessons "in real time" (Hangouts is better than Skype) which can be supplemented by sending videos for a more authentic sound, to a "platform" where the teacher makes hundreds of well-crafted lesson videos available for an annual fee, and also gives video feedback to students when they submit their homework. Most of these platforms will also allow students to see the videos and video feedback of other registered fellow students - you can learn a lot from the mistakes and corrections of your peers. It is not always possible to find a good teacher locally. Physical presence, especially for the physical-technical aspect, is always preferably, imho, if you can manage to get a decent teacher.

Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: zrtf90] #2813494
02/11/19 09:54 AM
02/11/19 09:54 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
Originally Posted by zrtf90
You don't need to learn all 48, Craig! Listen to a professional recording of the Prelude (and/or the Fugue) on the Monday and use that mood for the scale during the week. Associate that scale with that mood. You can learn a few bars of the Prelude, just one hand if you like, to get a more personal feel of the key or mood. You might take the subject of the fugue and just listen to what Bach does with it. It will increase your acquaintance with one of the two greatest collections (along with Beethoven's 32 sonatas) of piano music we have.

The 48 should be on most of our horizons so extra acquaintance does no harm. You'll soon learn which ones are attainable and which ones aren't even doing just a few bars with one hand alone. But audiating them without playing is enough.

Chopin's Preludes are another great resource - all keys and a wide variety of moods. Few of us will ever learn all of those but, once again, just studying the text one hand at a time will increase your familiarity with very important works in the piano canon. His Etudes are for advanced technical proficiency and that's not the point of this exercise.

You could also compile a list of 24 Symphonies or Concertos that cover all keys. You need to widen your knowledge and familiarity with our musical heritage and you need to associate a scale to a mood (or several moods) to avoid them becoming mechanical or without musical purpose.

If you want something to play you might investigate Hummel's Preludes Op. 67.




Just reread this post and thread, and downloaded that work by Hummel, Op 67.
Seems like a fun exercise, and of manageable length.
Thanks for the recommendation.


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 72.1
Bach Goldberg Aria
Bach WTC Prelude D min
Piazzolla Invierno Porteno
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813593
02/11/19 01:51 PM
02/11/19 01:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 768
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline
500 Post Club Member
ebonykawai  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 768
Niagara Falls NY
Well, nobody's mentioned formula pattern. 😂😂😂


Currently working at RCM level 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813594
02/11/19 01:52 PM
02/11/19 01:52 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
What's better than formula pattern?

Formula pattern with a teacher with a yardstick!


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 72.1
Bach Goldberg Aria
Bach WTC Prelude D min
Piazzolla Invierno Porteno
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: ebonykawai] #2813596
02/11/19 01:57 PM
02/11/19 01:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Tyrone Slothrop Online content OP
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content OP


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by ebonykawai
Well, nobody's mentioned formula pattern. 😂😂😂

I had asked about that separately! smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813598
02/11/19 01:58 PM
02/11/19 01:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 768
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline
500 Post Club Member
ebonykawai  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 768
Niagara Falls NY
😂😂😂 I'm dying, this thread killed me!


Currently working at RCM level 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813599
02/11/19 01:59 PM
02/11/19 01:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 768
Niagara Falls NY
ebonykawai Offline
500 Post Club Member
ebonykawai  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 768
Niagara Falls NY
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ebonykawai
Well, nobody's mentioned formula pattern. 😂😂😂

I had asked about that separately! smile


Ask quickly and then leave town!!!


Currently working at RCM level 5
Kawai UST-9, Yamaha CLP565GP, Kawai KDP110

"Sometimes I can only groan, and suffer, and pour out my despair at the piano!" - Frederic Chopin
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2813994
02/12/19 09:22 AM
02/12/19 09:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 48
Central PA
S
spartan928 Offline
Full Member
spartan928  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 48
Central PA
Hey Tyrone, interesting how many varied and passionate opinions there can be about scales huh? I take private lessons and scales, arpeggios and cadences are part of every lesson each week. Is it a bit of a grind to work on them? Yeah, but after nearly a year I see a lot of value and utility derived from working on at minimum all major/minor scales, including 1-4-5 cadences, inversions and arpeggios as I practice the scales.

I plan to participate in guild auditions so that is part of the structure, but to me scale work is very focused and provides some intellectual and physical structure that carries over into learning pieces. I have found scale work, just 10 min a day, has helped me to establish a better theoretical ground so I can more intuitively approach a piece whatever key it is in. I "see" chords" in the score more quickly and it helps reading and absorbing the piece as I begin diving into it. Just my two additional cents in a fifty dollar pot.

Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2814012
02/12/19 10:08 AM
02/12/19 10:08 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
Good comments, Spartan. What are guild auditions? How long have you been playing? Takes a long time to learn all scales, Major and minor and 4-5-1 cadences, inversions and arpeggios! Do you do the cadences on the minors as well?


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 72.1
Bach Goldberg Aria
Bach WTC Prelude D min
Piazzolla Invierno Porteno
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: cmb13] #2814112
02/12/19 02:19 PM
02/12/19 02:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 48
Central PA
S
spartan928 Offline
Full Member
spartan928  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 48
Central PA
Originally Posted by cmb13
Good comments, Spartan. What are guild auditions? How long have you been playing? Takes a long time to learn all scales, Major and minor and 4-5-1 cadences, inversions and arpeggios! Do you do the cadences on the minors as well?


The National Guild of Piano teachers hold auditions annually all over the US. I've been taking lessons since March 2018. The guild auditions are judged individually and you get a report card and certificate. Scores are really for constructive criticism non-competitive. My teacher enters students at a certain grade level wherever they are at and the level dictates what you need to perform. The Guild program is interesting as they have not only preparatory levels geared mainly toward kids through high school, but hobbyist, jazz, social programs etc. Their levels are Elementary A-F, Intermediate A-F, Preparatory A-D and lastly Diploma. My teacher put no pressure on my to enter but I wanted to and it's kind of cool but I have to have 7 pieces ready from memory by May! I have 4 of 7 down pat so I should be OK.

Also, within these levels the teacher chooses a classification (pledge, local, district, national) and the only differences between these are the number of pieces from memory. For example, I am entering for national and have to do 10 pieces from memory. However, scales, cadences and arpeggios count as three of the 10. I'm entering as Elementary F, so I have to do major scales, harmonic minor scales, hands separate two octaves, 1-4-5 cadence root scale position (major and minor) and one-handed arpeggios 2 octaves (hand separate). Don't have to play inversions at this level. Also, S/A/C only for the keys of the 7 pieces I am playing not all 12. The pieces I get to pick with my teacher must be at least one from each era; Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread for Guild information lol, but you asked!

Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2814147
02/12/19 03:28 PM
02/12/19 03:28 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
cmb13 Offline
Silver Level
cmb13  Offline
Silver Level

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,069
Florida
Glad I did - thanks for the info -
Now back to your program...


Boston 118 PE

Working On
Chopin Nocturne 72.1
Bach Goldberg Aria
Bach WTC Prelude D min
Piazzolla Invierno Porteno
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: spartan928] #2814149
02/12/19 03:36 PM
02/12/19 03:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Tyrone Slothrop Online content OP
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content OP


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,550
Originally Posted by spartan928
Originally Posted by cmb13
Good comments, Spartan. What are guild auditions? How long have you been playing? Takes a long time to learn all scales, Major and minor and 4-5-1 cadences, inversions and arpeggios! Do you do the cadences on the minors as well?


The National Guild of Piano teachers hold auditions annually all over the US. I've been taking lessons since March 2018. The guild auditions are judged individually and you get a report card and certificate. Scores are really for constructive criticism non-competitive. My teacher enters students at a certain grade level wherever they are at and the level dictates what you need to perform. The Guild program is interesting as they have not only preparatory levels geared mainly toward kids through high school, but hobbyist, jazz, social programs etc. Their levels are Elementary A-F, Intermediate A-F, Preparatory A-D and lastly Diploma. My teacher put no pressure on my to enter but I wanted to and it's kind of cool but I have to have 7 pieces ready from memory by May! I have 4 of 7 down pat so I should be OK.

Also, within these levels the teacher chooses a classification (pledge, local, district, national) and the only differences between these are the number of pieces from memory. For example, I am entering for national and have to do 10 pieces from memory. However, scales, cadences and arpeggios count as three of the 10. I'm entering as Elementary F, so I have to do major scales, harmonic minor scales, hands separate two octaves, 1-4-5 cadence root scale position (major and minor) and one-handed arpeggios 2 octaves (hand separate). Don't have to play inversions at this level. Also, S/A/C only for the keys of the 7 pieces I am playing not all 12. The pieces I get to pick with my teacher must be at least one from each era; Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread for Guild information lol, but you asked!

So informative! I of course was aware of that there were national and local level exams in the US as an alternative to international piano exams like the ABRSM, RCM, Trinity, and that the majority of American piano teachers actually prefer these to the international level exams/certifications, but I never actually understood what they are comprised of. You've explained it in a very clear way and I feel enlightened! Thanks!


across the stone, deathless piano performances
Re: Complete newb question on scales [Re: spartan928] #2814245
02/12/19 06:40 PM
02/12/19 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,686
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
1000 Post Club Member
NobleHouse  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,686
In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by spartan928
Originally Posted by cmb13
Good comments, Spartan. What are guild auditions? How long have you been playing? Takes a long time to learn all scales, Major and minor and 4-5-1 cadences, inversions and arpeggios! Do you do the cadences on the minors as well?


The National Guild of Piano teachers hold auditions annually all over the US. I've been taking lessons since March 2018. The guild auditions are judged individually and you get a report card and certificate. Scores are really for constructive criticism non-competitive. My teacher enters students at a certain grade level wherever they are at and the level dictates what you need to perform. The Guild program is interesting as they have not only preparatory levels geared mainly toward kids through high school, but hobbyist, jazz, social programs etc. Their levels are Elementary A-F, Intermediate A-F, Preparatory A-D and lastly Diploma. My teacher put no pressure on my to enter but I wanted to and it's kind of cool but I have to have 7 pieces ready from memory by May! I have 4 of 7 down pat so I should be OK.

Also, within these levels the teacher chooses a classification (pledge, local, district, national) and the only differences between these are the number of pieces from memory. For example, I am entering for national and have to do 10 pieces from memory. However, scales, cadences and arpeggios count as three of the 10. I'm entering as Elementary F, so I have to do major scales, harmonic minor scales, hands separate two octaves, 1-4-5 cadence root scale position (major and minor) and one-handed arpeggios 2 octaves (hand separate). Don't have to play inversions at this level. Also, S/A/C only for the keys of the 7 pieces I am playing not all 12. The pieces I get to pick with my teacher must be at least one from each era; Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread for Guild information lol, but you asked!




Very informative. Thanks!


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