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Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737443
05/17/18 01:41 PM
05/17/18 01:41 PM
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Does anyone know what keyboard the Nord piano 3 uses? I tried one today in a shop and thought it was good. Slightly light if anything, but pleasant and playable.


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Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737444
05/17/18 01:44 PM
05/17/18 01:44 PM
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I must say I was a bit put off by the "snob" in the title. I've moved from a cheap digital that I got second hand when I was dirt poor and desperate, to a lower end Yamaha that was about to disappear from the market, to a Kawai hybrid piano. The cheap digital isn't worth talking about. The lower end Yamaha: I saw even when I was in the store how trills needed a lot more "work" to come out, compared to the digitals that were one grade up (and several hundred dollars more than I could afford). I developed a touch where I had to push down to almost the bottom of the keybed each time, and lift up a fair distance in order for the next note to sound. I did a fair amount of relearning after getting the hybrid; one main reason was in fact the action. In the process, I lost a lot of stiffness in my hands. That is, I also had to unlearn what I had been doing, and regain sensitivity of touch that had been lost. "Snob" is not the reason for the change. wink

I listened to Molina's playing. It is superb and nothing that I could do. But the dynamics seem to be about the same throughout, which is what I tend to hear in this kind of genre.

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: toddy] #2737446
05/17/18 01:49 PM
05/17/18 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by toddy
Does anyone know what keyboard the Nord piano 3 uses? I tried one today in a shop and thought it was good. Slightly light if anything, but pleasant and playable.

fatar tp40h


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Tom Fort] #2737450
05/17/18 02:07 PM
05/17/18 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I think the Studiologic Numa uses the TP400.


i checked the studiologic site and the numa concert uses tp40w, while the numa stage uses tp100lr

jeff


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
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Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737451
05/17/18 02:09 PM
05/17/18 02:09 PM
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I didn't mean it in a bad way to say snob smile
I am a snob , or particular about many things

Last edited by Jitin; 05/17/18 02:14 PM.

P155
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737471
05/17/18 02:54 PM
05/17/18 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jitin
I didn't mean it in a bad way to say snob smile
I am a snob , or particular about many things


Same here!
I use the term affectionately , with humor and not as an insult.

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737477
05/17/18 03:07 PM
05/17/18 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Jitin
Besides personal preference, is there really a limitation of what can be executed on cheaper keyboard actions ?

I'd say minimally so. For a beginner player, pracitically no difference in what they can do on one hammer action vs. another. For a very advanced player, also not much difference in what they can do (but perhaps a big difference in how satisfying it is for them to play). For a player in between, maybe more of a difference, as they try to perhaps start to do more advanced stuff on a more or less accomodating keyboard.

I'd say that being able to execute any particular piece is one thing, but being able to execute it with the exact dynamics you're aiming for is something else. Beginners won't worry about so much about the subtleties, an expert will probably figure out how to get close on just about anything, and in between it might be more of a challenge.

Technically, about the only "impossibility" I can think of is that a 2-sensor action doesn't let you restrike a given key without silencing it first (unless the sustain pdal is down). Whether any piece actually requires that you be able to do such a thing? Probably not.
Originally Posted by Jitin
TO me only time it comes into play is songs with repetition of the same note at high speed which requires a grand piano actions

Even that isn't true. In fact, an unweighted Hammond organ action is about the easiest to do hgh speed same note repetition on. But you can do beter on some weighted actions than others. (Regardless of whether or not they have 3 sensors, btw. The third sensor doesn't necessaily help you repeat a note more quickly, though it does help you quickly repeat a note more quietly.)

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737482
05/17/18 03:15 PM
05/17/18 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Jitin
I didn't mean it in a bad way to say snob smile

Had I thought you meant it that way, I wouldn't have bothered writing. I did read the thread before responding. smile

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: anotherscott] #2737485
05/17/18 03:19 PM
05/17/18 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
I'd say minimally so. For a beginner player, pracitically no difference in what they can do on one hammer action vs. another.....

I'd like to suggest a different effect on beginners. This is when our senses are heightened and everything is new. I remember when I started violin as an adult, how I felt the difference between the strings in an exaggerated way that I could never feel again: the G string like dragging a box over gravel, the E string like gliding a smooth object over slippery water-covered ice. When I got my first digital piano after not playing for decades, the fact that I needed to push all the way down and up again created a reflex in the hands; and it created a kind of "deadness" because there was no response in the instrument to react to. These things are subliminal and subconscious, but I think they can have an effect.

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: jeffscot] #2737491
05/17/18 03:33 PM
05/17/18 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jefsco
also the new dexibell vivo s9 uses the tp400 . . .

It's supposed to have wooden (white only?) keys, so it's not TP/400.

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: clothearednincompo] #2737502
05/17/18 04:25 PM
05/17/18 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by Jefsco
also the new dexibell vivo s9 uses the tp400 . . .

It's supposed to have wooden (white only?) keys, so it's not TP/400.


steve with cuk audio could verify, but i have seen it reported multiple times as the tp400 including bonners site . . .

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/dexibell-vivo-s9-stage-piano-88-keys.ir

jeff


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737509
05/17/18 05:15 PM
05/17/18 05:15 PM
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Oh my, such a big question ...

Yes there are differences. Sometimes, extreme.

On a practical note, determine your budget. Then fill out your scorecard for all those that interest you in that price range. Go play them. (Even if you can't 'play' them. Get some touchy feely at least.) Take notes.

Try hard to tolerate -some- of The Sales Staff.

Then, go back and play some more. And take whatever home you like.

I believe, one has to like what they play on as, it will make it easier to practice and appreciate what you have.


Jon ...

Kawai CA67
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: jeffscot] #2737511
05/17/18 05:29 PM
05/17/18 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jefsco
Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I think the Studiologic Numa uses the TP400.


i checked the studiologic site and the numa concert uses tp40w, while the numa stage uses tp100lr

jeff



My post is correct, I believe. I stated the Numa Concert, Numa Nero, and SL 88 Grand controller use the TP/40 Wood. If you can point to an error there, I'd welcome it.

The Numa SL88 Studio controller (and SL73 Studio) and Numa Stage do indeed use the TP/100LR, but I did not mention them as they utilize a lightweight hammer action and Dave Horne was looking to try Fatar's best actions.

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Jitin] #2737515
05/17/18 05:50 PM
05/17/18 05:50 PM
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hi tom,

i was referring to your last sentence, which i quoted in the post.

“I think the Studiologic Numa uses the TP400”

i must have misunderstood the meaning . . . no worries 😉

jeff


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: jeffscot] #2737522
05/17/18 06:21 PM
05/17/18 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Jefsco
hi tom,

i was referring to your last sentence, which i quoted in the post.

“I think the Studiologic Numa uses the TP400”

i must have misunderstood the meaning . . . no worries 😉

jeff




The Fatar/Studiologic Numa is reported to have used the TP/400 (https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/fatar-numa). I have never actually touched that action, but from what I read it is very similar to the TP/40 Wood, but without the wood side pieces. It is described as having "solid" keys rather than hollow plastic like Fatar's lower quality or lighter actions. I recall reading somewhere that their length of travel was increased slightly compared to previous Fatar actions to mimic the depth of travel of grand actions. I'm curious as to how the TP/40 and TP/40 wood differ in construction from the various TP/40 actions used by Nord and others. I'm most interested in pivot length/touch deep in the keys.

I've been following Studiologic/Fatar a bit closely the past year or so, as it seems that their more recent triple-sensor keyboards have had far less quality control problems than their boards from 10 years ago. At the moment, they are producing instruments with a very high value per dollar ratio, with apparently good reliability. I have asked a couple questions via email from their support contact, and Gianni Giudici himself (https://studiologic-music.com/artists/gianni_giudici/) quickly responded. On the software side, they are involved with the Camelot project (http://www.camelotpro.com). The MIDI spec is finally changing with MIDI-CI and MPE already announced, with more changes coming as well, and hopefully Studiologic will be quick to respond to that with Camelot.

I think Studiologic is in a position to put out the best controllers in the market in the next year or two, and am curious as to what they'll announce at Summer NAMM.

Last edited by Tom Fort; 05/17/18 06:27 PM.
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Tom Fort] #2737541
05/17/18 08:40 PM
05/17/18 08:40 PM
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ok, i see what you mean on the fatar/studiologic numa

Originally Posted by Tom Fort
I'm curious as to how the TP/40 and TP/40 wood differ in construction from the various TP/40 actions used by Nord and others. I'm most interested in pivot length/touch deep in the keys.

You have probably seen this, but fatar does have a brief description of the tp40 wood . . .

http://www.fatar.com/Pages/TP_40WOOD.htm

. . . the dimensions are password protected though

jeff


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: jeffscot] #2737581
05/18/18 02:54 AM
05/18/18 02:54 AM
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Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Online content
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Originally Posted by Jefsco
Originally Posted by toddy
Does anyone know what keyboard the Nord piano 3 uses? I tried one today in a shop and thought it was good. Slightly light if anything, but pleasant and playable.

fatar tp40h


Nord modify the Fatar TP40H somewhat I am led to believe.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
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Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: Doug M.] #2737660
05/18/18 11:29 AM
05/18/18 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Nord modify the Fatar TP40H somewhat I am led to believe.


No I don't think so. They check it against their own desired calibrations but you would knock me down with a feather if they change anything physically about the action. Dexibell does exactly the same I understand; calibrations are checked on each action. I take that to mean that the velocity values output by each key for given key pressures are within close tolerances to ensure even playing.

The TP40 in Nord and Dexibell S7 is pretty good. Not the best but quite nice to play in my opinion. TP40/Wood which I understand is very closely related to TP400 is better still. The newest thing appears to be what is called TP400 but has wood/plastic sandwich construction. This is fitted to the new Dexibell S9.

If you study the few high-res pictures of Fatar actions out there they seem to use key height as some additional measure to increase the sense of throw or perceived pivot length. TP40/Wood and TP400 have very significant additional height at the keys in relation to the pivot points.

I am using a triple sensor version of the Fatar TP100 in a Dexibell P7. It's perfectly fine. Not the most rewarding in a tactile sense but I've played a lot worse. It's also a very quiet action. The advantage of the TP100 is that it tends to endow pianos with amazingly low weight. Typically 12 - 14 kg for a fully weighted 88 note piano is pretty useful when it comes to portability.


Roland RD-1000 | Yamaha CLP 645 | Broadwood Barless 7' 6"
Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: jeffscot] #2737676
05/18/18 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Jefsco
steve with cuk audio could verify, but i have seen it reported multiple times as the tp400 including bonners site . . .


Well, it's quite confusing until we get the actual information. I've also seen comments roughly like "It's something completely new" and "it's called TP400H".

So "TP400" is probably close, but missing one letter. smile

We'll see...

Re: Keyboard action snobs [Re: EssBrace] #2737697
05/18/18 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
If you study the few high-res pictures of Fatar actions out there they seem to use key height as some additional measure to increase the sense of throw or perceived pivot length. TP40/Wood and TP400 have very significant additional height at the keys in relation to the pivot.


i noticed the additional height as well in these pics of the tp40 and tp40wood

http://www.fatar.com/FOTO%20HIGH/TP_40_L_M_H_GH_ES.jpg

http://www.fatar.com/FOTO%20HIGH/TP_40_WOOD.jpg

jeff


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
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