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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737532
05/17/18 07:16 PM
05/17/18 07:16 PM
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(Continued from my last post since the edit function seems to be not working correctly.)The SMP increase in the last 4 years(Spring 2014 to Spring 2018 was around 13% for the 5'10" model and around 6% for the model 218.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 05/17/18 07:17 PM.
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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737533
05/17/18 07:19 PM
05/17/18 07:19 PM
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Georgia, USA
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
(Continued from my last post since the edit function seems to be not working correctly.)

I noticed the edit feature not working earlier this morning too. I thought maybe it was just me... but maybe not.

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Rickster] #2737538
05/17/18 08:02 PM
05/17/18 08:02 PM
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Posts: 1,936
In the Ozarks of Missouri
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Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
(Continued from my last post since the edit function seems to be not working correctly.)

I noticed the edit feature not working earlier this morning too. I thought maybe it was just me... but maybe not.

Rick


The edit feature has been missing for me for about 3 days now.


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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: NobleHouse] #2737540
05/17/18 08:06 PM
05/17/18 08:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
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In the Ozarks of Missouri
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Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
(Continued from my last post since the edit function seems to be not working correctly.)

I noticed the edit feature not working earlier this morning too. I thought maybe it was just me... but maybe not.

Rick


The edit feature has been missing for me for about 3 days now.


Now it is back.


[Linked Image]
Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737554
05/17/18 11:18 PM
05/17/18 11:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,915
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Retsacnal Online content OP

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Retsacnal  Online Content OP

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I think the edit option times out pretty quickly. I've tried to edit a few times and it seemed to be gone in about ten minutes or so after posting. Perhaps faster, but I was only looking a few minutes later.

edited. button still there...

Last edited by Retsacnal; 05/17/18 11:19 PM. Reason: to test button

"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: pianoloverus] #2737557
05/17/18 11:44 PM
05/17/18 11:44 PM
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Posts: 3,915
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Retsacnal Online content OP

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus

(Continued from my last post since the edit function seems to be not working correctly.)The SMP increase in the last 4 years(Spring 2014 to Spring 2018 was around 13% for the 5'10" model and around 6% for the model 218.

I agree that seven is a bit of a stretch for a "few." I generally think of it as about five (+/-), but it's not precisely defined.

Anyway, interesting numbers. I couldn't find historical SMPs on the site, so I googled for something here and found Steve's comment. But if the 218 increased only 6% in the last four years, that means it rose roughly 29% in the previous four years (35 - 6). Obviously, the increases aren't linear. There could have been a huge increase in the fifth year back. Any data older than four years?


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
P E R F O R M A N C E over p r o v e n a n c e

Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737575
05/18/18 01:53 AM
05/18/18 01:53 AM
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Surrey, B.C.
Norbert Offline
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Quote
Obviously, the increases aren't linear. There could have been a huge increase in the fifth year back. Any data older than four years?



Last edited by Norbert; 05/18/18 02:00 AM.

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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737594
05/18/18 05:37 AM
05/18/18 05:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 142
Seattle
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Originally Posted by Norbert
Hailun whoslesale prices have gone up by over 30% in last few years.
This is more than any other Chinese made piano I know.
While being a very good piano, not sure if they still represent very good value.
Buyers to judge these things.
Norbert



The comment by Norbert seemed of interest not due his alluding to an (undocumented) "30% price increase". Probably most piano merchants would want to create the perception that a competitive brand they do not carry is so "overpriced" and that the "other" brand is not worth considering. Some merchants post accordingly on this or other forums and then often confirm each others postings and try to create a public perception that fits their agenda.

However, what caught my attention was Norbert's conclusion that, in this particular case, Hailun is or is not "very good value". Just use a few days ago I had two extensive conversations on that topic. One was with a Hailun merchant in the Southwest who asserted that Hailun was "currently the best value in the market". A lengthy exchange ensued to what the criteria for that assessment would be and if Hailun would want to be perceived that way.

So when Norbert, who I know as thoughtful, ethical man, who is always open for a good discussion, posted, I was curious to the facts on his two assertions on what "...good value" constitutes and the following questions came to mind:

- What are a "few years"? Is it 2-3, 3-6, 6-10?

- What sources did Norbert go to see and compare prices and come up with 30%? (We give our confidential pricelist every year to Mr. Larry Fine who is very trustworthy in these matters.)

- What are the other Chinese piano brands that he asserts have not increased their prices by "30% in the last few years"? And did he get their prices from the same source?

- What are the other Non-Chinese brands and how did their prices increase in the same "few years"?

- What features or factors make "very good piano value"? Are there aspects that are not subjective or facts that could constitute a basis for such an assessment?

- For who would Hailun be or not be a good value? Is there customer groups for which Hailun would not qualify as a great value? Who would be the ones that would assess Hailun as 'good value". Is Hailun not "very good value" (as per Norbert) or is it "the best value in there market currently" ?


Admittedly, I was hoping that Norbert would be willing to explain his statement and provide a better view of how he arrived at his conclusions, or lay open the source of his data or information, which might shed more light how he or others might arrive at the conclusion.

However, I am not posting to corner Norbert and Retsacnal is right that a general discussion might be of interest if it is based on the old adage: "In God we trust. All others must bring data."


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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Campanella12] #2737602
05/18/18 07:00 AM
05/18/18 07:00 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,792
New York City
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Originally Posted by Campanella12
The comment by Norbert seemed of interest not due his alluding to an (undocumented) "30% price increase". Probably most piano merchants would want to create the perception that a competitive brand they do not carry is so "overpriced" and that the "other" brand is not worth considering. Some merchants post accordingly on this or other forums and then often confirm each others postings and try to create a public perception that fits their agenda.
Yes.

Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Campanella12] #2737610
05/18/18 07:35 AM
05/18/18 07:35 AM
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 209
Chiltern Hills, England.
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gwing Offline
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Originally Posted by Campanella12

"In God we trust. All others must bring data."


That's a pretty good principle. However it would be a pretty barren forum here if every poster had to consider and find evidence and irrefutable statistics before posting anything. Sometimes, maybe even usually, we just work on personal perceptions and common sense (until someone comes along and suggests some contrary evidence).

Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737662
05/18/18 11:38 AM
05/18/18 11:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,203
Georgia, USA
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Originally Posted by gwing
irrefutable statistics

Not sure there is such a thing; you know, the three kinds of lies? Lies, d*** lies and statistics. smile

Originally Posted by gwing
Sometimes, maybe even usually, we just work on personal perceptions and common sense (until someone comes along and suggests some contrary evidence)

Ah, personal perceptions. More important in economics and sales than facts, truth and statistics. Common sense? Worth more than gold, but not everyone is endowed with it. Contrary evidence? It depends on how contrary the individual presenting the evidence is or isn't. smile

Great commentary, gwing! What I've learned in my 12 years as a member of PW, is that you learn who to believe or not believe. You learn who has ulterior motives, or agendas they wish to promote. You learn who is genuine and who is full of it, irrefutable data or not. Yet, and still, we develop friendships to an extent, even with those with whom we may disagree.

Of course it's all fun, educational and entertaining! smile

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Rickster] #2737702
05/18/18 01:50 PM
05/18/18 01:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 15,433
Surrey, B.C.
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My memory of hefty price increase for Hailun goes back when ‘Campanella’ became the new distributor for the brand. “Few years ago” Same incidentally was also true for Sauter, another brand to be represented by the above.
(Still showing below signature but not sure if still being represented at this time.. (apologies if wrong here...)
Just turning 70, “few years” may appear to have perhaps become longer periods than when still at younger age 😼. But that was not my point nor would it be material to it. Fact is that since ‘Campanella’’ has taken over distributor ship (why not use your real name Sir: common for all other company reps here..) Hailun retail prices at least here in Canada, appeared to have gone up major. For example the Hailun 178 grand now showing a selling price of Can $ 12-14k more by local dealer than when we had the line still ourselves. The aspect of “value” - as most people will agree - needs to always be judged on a strictly comparative basis. By edging closer to other makes like Kawai for example, it’s totally up to buyers to decide on things.
At one time this was IMHO a little easier than is perhaps today.
The gaps gaps between Hailun and other brands had been much wider at that time: “Few years ago”
That’s all.

Norbert

Last edited by Norbert; 05/18/18 01:56 PM.

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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737722
05/18/18 03:28 PM
05/18/18 03:28 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 351
Chicago
J
John305 Online content
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Chicago
I would wonder if the price increases were accompanied by commensurate increases in quality. It's possible as the brand matures that they improve their product with better materials and manufacturing processes. This might not be the case but then again it might be. Just a thought.


It’s never too late to be what you might have been. -George Eliot
Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737803
05/18/18 09:46 PM
05/18/18 09:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 241
Oregon USA
jarobi Offline
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I guess "good value" can only be determined by the purchaser. In my case, I preferred the Hailun 178 to my next favorites, which were the Kawai GX-2 and Yamaha C2X. The fact that the purchase price of the Hailun was $9K less than the Kawai and less than half the price of the Yamaha, made it a good value to me. There may be other pianos that could have possibly been a better buy, but they weren't available to try within a reasonable drive.

Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737806
05/18/18 09:55 PM
05/18/18 09:55 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,494
Rehoboth Beach De. USA
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Seems rather odd that If Campanella is a piano distributer he would not provide his real name or that he could not figure out how to change his signature.

Rich


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Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Rich D.] #2737909
05/19/18 09:21 AM
05/19/18 09:21 AM
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Posts: 10,963
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Steve Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by Rich D.
Seems rather odd that If Campanella is a piano distributer he would not provide his real name or that he could not figure out how to change his signature.

Rich


I can attest that Campanella is indeed a piano distributor.


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My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.
Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2737922
05/19/18 10:10 AM
05/19/18 10:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 46
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Piano Math Online content
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Campanella does actually list the information in his pw profile.

Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: John305] #2738030
05/19/18 05:37 PM
05/19/18 05:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 142
Seattle
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I looked up the price development of a semi concert grand for another China made brand and two Japanese made makers, comparing SMP prices in 2009 to 2018.

Semi Concert Grand - Comparable to Hailun 218:

Price Increase 2009/2018 in %:

Another Chinese Manufacturer: 42% (9 years)

Japanese Manufacturer 1 : 73% (9 years)

Japanese Maker Manufacturer 2 : 31% (9 years)



Originally Posted by Norbert


Just turning 70, “few years” may appear to have perhaps become longer periods than when still at younger age 😼.
Hailun retail prices at least here in Canada, appeared to have gone up major. For example the Hailun 178 grand now showing a selling price of Can $ 12-14k more by local dealer than when we had the line still ourselves.

Norbert


In regard to a fictitious price increase in Canada, may I bring to your attention that we did not unusually increase prices in 2008-10 in Canada but the market did. The USD to CAD exchange rate changed dramatically during that time and created significant disadvantages for Canadian customers.

As to a price increase in "real" terms, that is from the perspective of an economist, I don't think a 30% price increase over the last "few years" occurred at all if you take into account that China's inflation over this 10 year period was about 28% (statista.com)


Originally Posted by John305
I would wonder if the price increases were accompanied by commensurate increases in quality. It's possible as the brand matures that they improve their product with better materials and manufacturing processes. This might not be the case but then again it might be. Just a thought.


John305 - I exactly agree with that thought. I started preparing a long list detailing some of the improvements and innovations that our instruments have undergone but thought that it would sound more like a sales pitch. Hailun's today are much, much better than they were in 2010 and have new technology that other makers simply do not have (HLPS, Austrian wood, beefed up iron frame,...etc).


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Office: 509-946-8078
Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Retsacnal] #2738063
05/19/18 07:23 PM
05/19/18 07:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 89
Washington DC area
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Ritz Offline
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The somewhat dramatic increase in Chinese manufacturing costs for pianos is probably attributable to a significant increase in labor cost over the past 10 years. Skilled labor is increasingly hard to come by and wages have been steadily on the rise...at a rate well in excess of inflation. So I don't find these price increases hard to believe, but also think it's a stretch to think that there have been significant increases in quality to accompany those higher prices.

That's coming from someone who has lived and worked in China for a few years, though not in this particular industry.

Best,


1938 Chickering Baby Grand
Trying to learn about these fascinating instruments
Re: Hailun Distribution Channel [Re: Campanella12] #2738067
05/19/18 07:51 PM
05/19/18 07:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,915
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Retsacnal Online content OP

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Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015


Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,915
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Originally Posted by Campanella12

I looked up the price development of a semi concert grand for another China made brand and two Japanese made makers, comparing SMP prices in 2009 to 2018.

Semi Concert Grand - Comparable to Hailun 218:

Price Increase 2009/2018 in %:

Another Chinese Manufacturer: 42% (9 years)

Japanese Manufacturer 1 : 73% (9 years)

Japanese Maker Manufacturer 2 : 31% (9 years)



Originally Posted by Norbert


Just turning 70, “few years” may appear to have perhaps become longer periods than when still at younger age 😼.
Hailun retail prices at least here in Canada, appeared to have gone up major. For example the Hailun 178 grand now showing a selling price of Can $ 12-14k more by local dealer than when we had the line still ourselves.

Norbert


In regard to a fictitious price increase in Canada, may I bring to your attention that we did not unusually increase prices in 2008-10 in Canada but the market did. The USD to CAD exchange rate changed dramatically during that time and created significant disadvantages for Canadian customers.

As to a price increase in "real" terms, that is from the perspective of an economist, I don't think a 30% price increase over the last "few years" occurred at all if you take into account that China's inflation over this 10 year period was about 28% (statista.com)


Originally Posted by John305
I would wonder if the price increases were accompanied by commensurate increases in quality. It's possible as the brand matures that they improve their product with better materials and manufacturing processes. This might not be the case but then again it might be. Just a thought.


John305 - I exactly agree with that thought. I started preparing a long list detailing some of the improvements and innovations that our instruments have undergone but thought that it would sound more like a sales pitch. Hailun's today are much, much better than they were in 2010 and have new technology that other makers simply do not have (HLPS, Austrian wood, beefed up iron frame,...etc).


Always the spinmeister! Why waste so many words to convince everyone that a price increase would be "ok," but still claim it's fictitious?

Using the same approach (comparing SMPs), I already demonstrated a 35% increase in the same Hailun model you say these others are comparable to. So, if your numbers are believable, then so are mine! And the increase is real, not fictitious.

So, I know why I chose the 218: it was the only model I could find a historical SMP for. I'm curious why you chose only comparables to the 218? You apparently have lots of data available to you. Wouldn't it make sense to compare all the models? Or even better to focus on the bread-and-butter models that sell in the greatest volume, like shorter grands and uprights? But even within the semi concert grand range, why only 3? I count more than 3 dozen makers of similarly sized pianos.

Furthermore, the claim you say is "fictitious" isn't about any of the other brands. It's about Hailun. I found a concrete example of a Hailun model that had a 35% increase. Pointing out that a couple other makes did too is just a clumsy and irrelevant distraction.

In other words, your analysis is inadequate. I had already offered up a concrete counter-example to your claim. It will take much more compelling evidence on your part to prove your perspective.


"If it sounds good, it is good." - Duke Ellington
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