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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2743620
06/11/18 10:57 AM
06/11/18 10:57 AM
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Wanted to give an update on this. A tech did come out a few weeks ago and ran the key sensor tests, but that really didn't do anything. One thing that was discovered is that the action for the keys in the middle is different. You don't feel the escapement point anymore, where you press the key down slowly, feel a little resistance, and then push further feeling a click or notch like sensation. Not sure if that is causing the double note issue, although I had a hard time duplicating it when the tech came out a couple weeks ago. Yamaha arranged for another tech to come out this week (most likely tomorrow), who is more qualified to adjust the action. I stopped by a Yamaha store yesterday to play with the N2 and could not duplicate the double note issue no matter how hard I tried. The "escapement" feeling was present with the keys in the middle as well, which is what I would expect with a brand new unit smile

Hopefully I'll know more after tomorrow.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2743924
06/12/18 02:49 PM
06/12/18 02:49 PM
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Update. The duplicate note issue appears to be solved smile It was related to the action. The tech said it was quite loose in the middle. He had to shim some rail a very small amount, a 1/4 of mm he said. That's it. Amazing that such a small change can make a big difference. The escapement can be felt now with all the keys in the middle. It feels better. Sorry I can't give more details on what was done, I worked on my computer. He did have to tear the thing down though, parts everywhere, haha.

He thought the wood in the middle may have sagged after production because of a variety reasons, moisture, etc. I suppose there other things to consider when you have a hybrid.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2743958
06/12/18 04:52 PM
06/12/18 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I suppose there other things to consider when you have a hybrid.


Interesting. So these hybrids may require regulation at some point..


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2743987
06/12/18 07:30 PM
06/12/18 07:30 PM
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The tech did say they do, but I think he was surprised that I've had it only 9 months now. I wonder how soon it might happen again smirk

Thanks jfl for making me use the harpsichord voice smile I played with it for awhile now and heard no note duplication or see duplicate notes within Pianoteq.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2744066
06/13/18 05:11 AM
06/13/18 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
The tech did say they do, but I think he was surprised that I've had it only 9 months now. I wonder how soon it might happen again smirk


I am not sure how sensitive is the action of an hybrid like the AG. But the wood is definitely expected to adapt to its new environment during the first months. Is it common to regulate periodically these DPs?

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744073
06/13/18 06:08 AM
06/13/18 06:08 AM
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Good point on the new environment conditions. I'm under the impression the action should be checked on a regular basis, as it would be on an acoustic. The frequency I guess would be based on time playing on it, room conditions, etc. I'm curious how often the action would be regulated on an acoustic, on average. If you play with the intensity of someone say like VK, maybe every 3 months, haha. I don't know.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2744090
06/13/18 08:14 AM
06/13/18 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Good point on the new environment conditions. I'm under the impression the action should be checked on a regular basis, as it would be on an acoustic. The frequency I guess would be based on time playing on it, room conditions, etc. I'm curious how often the action would be regulated on an acoustic, on average. If you play with the intensity of someone say like VK, maybe every 3 months, haha. I don't know.


This would be a question to the technicians forum ;-) Some acoustics are regulated every 5 years or so but, depending on usage and environmental conditions. New pianos may require a couple of regulations during the first years of use due to the setting/compacting of felts and other components. But an hybrid should be somewhat more tolerant to changes in environmental conditions than an acoustic since there are no hammer/string adjustments to be made, which is one of the main areas of focus during regulation work.

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: arc7urus] #2744136
06/13/18 11:00 AM
06/13/18 11:00 AM
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Orange County, California
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

New pianos may require a couple of regulations during the first years of use due to the setting/compacting of felts and other components. But an hybrid should be somewhat more tolerant to changes in environmental conditions than an acoustic since there are no hammer/string adjustments to be made, which is one of the main areas of focus during regulation work.


That makes sense, things will settle after playing with it on a regular basis after purchase. Still surprised that an adjustment of a .25 mm was all that was needed. What is that, the thickness of paper? laugh


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744156
06/13/18 01:55 PM
06/13/18 01:55 PM
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Not an AG but I had my NU1 serviced last year, a couple of months before the 5 year warranty was due to expire. Every key was removed, the optical grids cleaned, then keys returned. The action did not need and was not regulated other than fixing a rubbing noise on a couple of places using PTFE lube. It looked pristine to my untrained eye. Playing the same melody in different octaves I do not discern any diiference in the key action across the board low to high. I play at least 1 hour a day, usually more, with grandchildren who, err, pound it a bit occasionally and love glissando’s. It’s in the UK climate so quite humid, although the air indoors gets quite dry due to heating in winter. I never close the fall board or cover the action unless away for more than 1 week. The action remains more responsive than my teachers baby grand.

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744167
06/13/18 02:23 PM
06/13/18 02:23 PM
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It's a common practice to regulate the keys on an acoustic piano by adding (or removing) thin paper shims on the rail pins. The shims come in a variety of thicknesses, and there are usually several of them on each pin, selected to give the proper height.

Since an AG has a true grand action I'd expect it to require the same kind of regulation as an acoustic grand. Pin shims are only one part of such regulation.

I wonder how often an AG will require capstan adjustment? Backcheck regulation? Key bushing replacement? Re-adjustment of the reps? Reworking of the action centers?

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744172
06/13/18 02:31 PM
06/13/18 02:31 PM
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I don't recall anything in the NV10 manual recommending periodic regulation.


Kawai Novus NV10
Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2744209
06/13/18 05:10 PM
06/13/18 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Update. The duplicate note issue appears to be solved smile It was related to the action. The tech said it was quite loose in the middle. He had to shim some rail a very small amount, a 1/4 of mm he said. That's it. Amazing that such a small change can make a big difference. The escapement can be felt now with all the keys in the middle. It feels better. Sorry I can't give more details on what was done, I worked on my computer. He did have to tear the thing down though, parts everywhere, haha.

He thought the wood in the middle may have sagged after production because of a variety reasons, moisture, etc. I suppose there other things to consider when you have a hybrid.


Funny thing. Same day I got a fix from Kawai for the same issue on the NV10 wink This one was firmware though, no tech visit.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: Gombessa] #2744253
06/13/18 08:39 PM
06/13/18 08:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
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Hamamatsu, Japan
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Funny thing. Same day I got a fix from Kawai for the same issue on the NV10 wink This one was firmware though, no tech visit.


Gombessa, this software fix is to prevent the double notes when setting the instrument's Touch Curve to Off, correct?

Kind regards,
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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: Kawai James] #2744263
06/13/18 09:42 PM
06/13/18 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Gombessa, this software fix is to prevent the double notes when setting the instrument's Touch Curve to Off, correct?



Correct! There's no problem at all with normal playing, only with "touch curve off" when all notes will sound with velocity 80.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50 || Kawai NV-10, MP11
Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744264
06/13/18 09:45 PM
06/13/18 09:45 PM
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Nice, glad to see it was fixed for you too smile


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