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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2736231
05/13/18 05:04 PM
05/13/18 05:04 PM
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@MacMacMac : deprivation of heaven, straight to h e l l. smile

H e l l is replaced automagically by « heck » here. grin

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/13/18 05:40 PM.

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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2736269
05/13/18 09:27 PM
05/13/18 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Thankfully, it's a sound I can do without smile


Not me. Not sure what sort of music you all play, but there's nothing like playing baroque music (not just Bach) on a *good* harpsichord sample library. I have nearly all the ones from real samples (http://www.realsamples.de/epages/17831984.sf/en_US/?ObjectPath=/Shops/17831984/Categories) and think they're fantastic for that repertoire (granted the action of the keyboard is obviously not authentic, for that one needs a Roland digital harpsichord). The harpsichord sounds on both the AGs and NV10 are, pretty horrible and they're not even emulating any particular type of harpsichord which can have a very beautiful and varied tone. (Full disclosure: I have conversed with the guy behind RealSamples, a sound engineer in Germany who travels around sampling historic instruments in private collections and museums, but didn't know him before I made my first purchase from him, have no financial interest in his business whatsoever and pay full asking price for all instruments.) I also have several others by SonicCouture, Spitfire Audio, and of course Pianoteq (who's free historic instruments are actually not bad at all and fun to play with).

Point being, ability to use all sorts of VSTs not just modern pianos, is very important to me. If the problem is just with fixed volume instruments then a separate controller for those may not be too bad as the superiority of the hybrid action is a bit of a moot point. I suppose I really need to try it out personally before buying. It's not just whether you can do it, but how good it is. I'm expecting that the sound of a VST like Garritan CFX fed back into the hybrid audio system will surpass the internal sound engine in all ways. If it's not as good, then something's not right. I view the internal piano sounds as a convenience, not a replacement for external sound engines. If one of the two (NV10/N2X) supported this better than the other, I'd have to have a really good think about that.

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: MacMacMac] #2736281
05/13/18 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Damage, fire, shock, death, or worse?
Tell us ... just what could be worse? smile


hehehe

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2736316
05/14/18 07:42 AM
05/14/18 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist

No, I can't make the harpsichord voice sound softer or louder. It's all the same, although you'll see different midi velocities being sent to Pianoteq. Thankfully, it's a sound I can do without smile


Ah, fwiw on the NV10 the harpsichord does have dynamics...though like you I've never used it, I selected it just to try for this smile

Originally Posted by jfl

Point being, ability to use all sorts of VSTs not just modern pianos, is very important to me. If the problem is just with fixed volume instruments then a separate controller for those may not be too bad as the superiority of the hybrid action is a bit of a moot point. I suppose I really need to try it out personally before buying. It's not just whether you can do it, but how good it is. I'm expecting that the sound of a VST like Garritan CFX fed back into the hybrid audio system will surpass the internal sound engine in all ways.


I only tested briefly, but IIRC Garritan specifically has some noise in its samples that is audible at lower dynamics (there's a lot of discussion on this point). When I tried piping it into the NV10, I recall being able to hear this noise more easily than through headphones, and of course such noise doesn't exist in the built-in piano sounds. It was distracting enough for me to be a factor against using Garritan through the DP's speakers, since the native output was crystal clear in comparison. Other VSTs seem to be less noisy than Garritan in this regard, if it matters.

The AGs--at least the N3/N3X--also have the additional factor of comparing to their true 4-channel positional output, which I can't really speak to (I've not heard that the NV10 does this, despite the "multichannel sampling" for its Pianist mode).


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2736317
05/14/18 07:53 AM
05/14/18 07:53 AM
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I get rid of noise with Garritan with a very smooth lowpass filter at 16kHz. (Reaper). With only Garritan CFX, set an EQ at 8000Hz, and the upper band at -10dB.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2736345
05/14/18 11:19 AM
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Gombessa, aside from the noise, did the CFX sound full, rounded, and as convincing (or perhaps better) as the on-board sound? In other words, if it were not for the noise would you see yourself playing the VST -by default- instead of the Shigeru sample?

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2736365
05/14/18 12:13 PM
05/14/18 12:13 PM
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I took the fall board off yesterday and watched the hammer when trying to replicate the duplicate note issue. You can see the hammer rebound, but it's very minimal. In fact, it isn't any different than playing a note quickly in rapid succession. When playing in rapid succession and barely lifting the key up, I see a bunch of midi on events. The off events don't come until after lifting up the key fully. When the duplicate note issue happens when playing softly, there are two on events followed by 2 off events. So how does the piano tell the difference? Maybe it's confusing the soft rebound with trying to play in rapid succession?

You can see a crappy video below.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aq5RA8FZygcygvx8-wcFyecjGAEz2Q


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: Pete14] #2736379
05/14/18 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I took the fall board off yesterday and watched the hammer when trying to replicate the duplicate note issue. You can see the hammer rebound, but it's very minimal. In fact, it isn't any different than playing a note quickly in rapid succession. When playing in rapid succession and barely lifting the key up, I see a bunch of midi on events. The off events don't come until after lifting up the key fully. When the duplicate note issue happens when playing softly, there are two on events followed by 2 off events. So how does the piano tell the difference? Maybe it's confusing the soft rebound with trying to play in rapid succession?

You can see a crappy video below.

https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aq5RA8FZygcygvx8-wcFyecjGAEz2Q


The sequential note-on messages are normal. Without the key being raised fully, the note-offs that accompany each note-on are queued up until the key is actually released.

I hesitate to say your AG issue is the same as what I'm seeing, but the fact that it also happens with zero-touch-curve notes is really coincidental. Once difference is you're seeing variable low-velocity values, whereas on the NV10 they're always velocity 1. Not sure if this is a software filtering difference...

Originally Posted by Pete14
Gombessa, aside from the noise, did the CFX sound full, rounded, and as convincing (or perhaps better) as the on-board sound? In other words, if it were not for the noise would you see yourself playing the VST -by default- instead of the Shigeru sample?


At the risk of further derailing the AG thread, I'm not sure. It's a bit more complicated than that. The CFX is certainly fuller, and I feel it has much more fidelity and "meat" behind it, especially in the lower registers, and the naturally recorded ambiance is unbeatable. But the SK-EX in the NV-10 has a really good resonance engine that I don't hear in the CFX. Just striking a note results in a subtle multi-timbral ringing that survives the original note decay, and the way the NV10 speakers are set up might help accentuate that as well. Plus, I have some desires for effortless switching between headphones and speakers, and you can't do that on the NV10 without physically pulling the phones plug in and out. So I didn't spend too much time trying to get it to work perfectly, I was just happy running CFX through headphones and switching to the onboard sounds whenever I needed the speakers.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2736402
05/14/18 02:29 PM
05/14/18 02:29 PM
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The Yamaha tech left a voicemail for me this morning. The will get back to me with more info, or schedule a time to come out and take a look/troubleshoot. I'll keep you up to date with info as it comes.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2736665
05/14/18 11:02 PM
05/14/18 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
The Yamaha tech left a voicemail for me this morning. The will get back to me with more info, or schedule a time to come out and take a look/troubleshoot. I'll keep you up to date with info as it comes.


Thanks for your persistence on this. I'm really interested in what you find out. From the video, I can't see that tiny rebound causing an additional midi sound on, but maybe it is.

But what I'm hearing is that both of you are saying that both the N2 and NV10 will work well running the audio device output back into the line in when used with conventional piano software (I'm assuming Pteq and CFX lite would be fairly representative of modeled/sampled VSTs).

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2743620
06/11/18 11:57 AM
06/11/18 11:57 AM
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Wanted to give an update on this. A tech did come out a few weeks ago and ran the key sensor tests, but that really didn't do anything. One thing that was discovered is that the action for the keys in the middle is different. You don't feel the escapement point anymore, where you press the key down slowly, feel a little resistance, and then push further feeling a click or notch like sensation. Not sure if that is causing the double note issue, although I had a hard time duplicating it when the tech came out a couple weeks ago. Yamaha arranged for another tech to come out this week (most likely tomorrow), who is more qualified to adjust the action. I stopped by a Yamaha store yesterday to play with the N2 and could not duplicate the double note issue no matter how hard I tried. The "escapement" feeling was present with the keys in the middle as well, which is what I would expect with a brand new unit smile

Hopefully I'll know more after tomorrow.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2743924
06/12/18 03:49 PM
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Update. The duplicate note issue appears to be solved smile It was related to the action. The tech said it was quite loose in the middle. He had to shim some rail a very small amount, a 1/4 of mm he said. That's it. Amazing that such a small change can make a big difference. The escapement can be felt now with all the keys in the middle. It feels better. Sorry I can't give more details on what was done, I worked on my computer. He did have to tear the thing down though, parts everywhere, haha.

He thought the wood in the middle may have sagged after production because of a variety reasons, moisture, etc. I suppose there other things to consider when you have a hybrid.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2743958
06/12/18 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
I suppose there other things to consider when you have a hybrid.


Interesting. So these hybrids may require regulation at some point..


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2743987
06/12/18 08:30 PM
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The tech did say they do, but I think he was surprised that I've had it only 9 months now. I wonder how soon it might happen again smirk

Thanks jfl for making me use the harpsichord voice smile I played with it for awhile now and heard no note duplication or see duplicate notes within Pianoteq.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2744066
06/13/18 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
The tech did say they do, but I think he was surprised that I've had it only 9 months now. I wonder how soon it might happen again smirk


I am not sure how sensitive is the action of an hybrid like the AG. But the wood is definitely expected to adapt to its new environment during the first months. Is it common to regulate periodically these DPs?

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744073
06/13/18 07:08 AM
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Good point on the new environment conditions. I'm under the impression the action should be checked on a regular basis, as it would be on an acoustic. The frequency I guess would be based on time playing on it, room conditions, etc. I'm curious how often the action would be regulated on an acoustic, on average. If you play with the intensity of someone say like VK, maybe every 3 months, haha. I don't know.


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: bSharp(C)yclist] #2744090
06/13/18 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bSharp(C)yclist
Good point on the new environment conditions. I'm under the impression the action should be checked on a regular basis, as it would be on an acoustic. The frequency I guess would be based on time playing on it, room conditions, etc. I'm curious how often the action would be regulated on an acoustic, on average. If you play with the intensity of someone say like VK, maybe every 3 months, haha. I don't know.


This would be a question to the technicians forum ;-) Some acoustics are regulated every 5 years or so but, depending on usage and environmental conditions. New pianos may require a couple of regulations during the first years of use due to the setting/compacting of felts and other components. But an hybrid should be somewhat more tolerant to changes in environmental conditions than an acoustic since there are no hammer/string adjustments to be made, which is one of the main areas of focus during regulation work.

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: arc7urus] #2744136
06/13/18 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

New pianos may require a couple of regulations during the first years of use due to the setting/compacting of felts and other components. But an hybrid should be somewhat more tolerant to changes in environmental conditions than an acoustic since there are no hammer/string adjustments to be made, which is one of the main areas of focus during regulation work.


That makes sense, things will settle after playing with it on a regular basis after purchase. Still surprised that an adjustment of a .25 mm was all that was needed. What is that, the thickness of paper? laugh


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Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744156
06/13/18 02:55 PM
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Not an AG but I had my NU1 serviced last year, a couple of months before the 5 year warranty was due to expire. Every key was removed, the optical grids cleaned, then keys returned. The action did not need and was not regulated other than fixing a rubbing noise on a couple of places using PTFE lube. It looked pristine to my untrained eye. Playing the same melody in different octaves I do not discern any diiference in the key action across the board low to high. I play at least 1 hour a day, usually more, with grandchildren who, err, pound it a bit occasionally and love glissando’s. It’s in the UK climate so quite humid, although the air indoors gets quite dry due to heating in winter. I never close the fall board or cover the action unless away for more than 1 week. The action remains more responsive than my teachers baby grand.

Re: AvantGrand internal sound system with VSTs [Re: jfl] #2744167
06/13/18 03:23 PM
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It's a common practice to regulate the keys on an acoustic piano by adding (or removing) thin paper shims on the rail pins. The shims come in a variety of thicknesses, and there are usually several of them on each pin, selected to give the proper height.

Since an AG has a true grand action I'd expect it to require the same kind of regulation as an acoustic grand. Pin shims are only one part of such regulation.

I wonder how often an AG will require capstan adjustment? Backcheck regulation? Key bushing replacement? Re-adjustment of the reps? Reworking of the action centers?

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