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Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
karvala #2734370 05/05/18 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by karvala
A few more questions to current owners of this if that's okay.

1. Is there any sort of global tone control, i.e. a timbre or character control, global EQ or anything like that? Or is it only per-note?

2. What (other) global controls are there apart from tuning and microphone mixing? I.e. anything about release samples? Choosing to use or not use sustain samples? Room reverb settings? Sympathetic resonance? Sustain resonance? Any info would be good.


If you email Paul Kopf at support@vsl.co.at he'll send you a manual. But in general the images on the product info page answer most of your questions. There are EQ, pan, reverb and delay options per mic as shown in the mix image. The room reverb and some of the other controls are shown on the Play image.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by dbudde; 05/05/18 07:35 PM.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
dbudde #2734454 05/06/18 07:08 AM
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Thanks for that. I've e-mailed him to ask about the manual. I've looked at everything on the website, and couldn't see anything about tone or timbre control other than EQ per mic, and your screenshot above seems to confirm that. Unusual to have no explicit control of tones or release samples at a global level.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2734833 05/07/18 01:44 PM
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I have purchased it and I am worry about the breath noise.

I was expecting an improvement on Garritan CFX (which has a little noise) and it is even worse.

Then I will use mainly Garritan CFX with some EQ (or VSL Vienna Imperial which is very good)


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
Frédéric L #2734835 05/07/18 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I have purchased it and I am worry about the breath noise.

I was expecting an improvement on Garritan CFX (which has a little noise) and it is even worse.

Then I will use mainly Garritan CFX with some EQ (or VSL Vienna Imperial which is very good)

And how do the two compare soundwise in your opinion, both the CFX from Garritan and VSL....?

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2734848 05/07/18 02:31 PM
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The first difference is that the VSL Player preset blends multiple sounds from different distances, then I have tuned Garritan CFX with a little bit of reverb to make the sound less dry and more comparable.

The second difference is that Garritan CFX is warmer, and VSL CFX brighter (but not too bright... I really dislike too bright pianos like many C7). I suppose this is due to the Close1 perspective just above the strings. My version is Standard. Perhaps the Full version uses the Close2 which is closer to the player to produce a sound more like Garritan. I wouldn’t say one is better than the other about the timbre, they are just different.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2734872 05/07/18 04:27 PM
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Note: I have just seen the reverb knob... and the player preset put it on -9dB. I need -Inf if I want a dry sound !!


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735099 05/08/18 01:44 PM
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Here is the 27 page PDF user manual for VSL CFX... (latest version v1.02)

VSL CFX manual.pdf
(...direct download link, 3.32MB file size.)


Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735142 05/08/18 05:12 PM
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I must say the more I play this instrument the more attached I get to it. It has a really nice touch, and the dynamic range is mighty. And I didn't even change anything about it, it's at 100 (factory default) and you can crank it up even higher, I think up to 200 or something. This is wild.

But I strongly dislike the ambience, the more I play it. The room just doesn't sound good to me. I found it helps to turn off the predelay from the mix window. That makes the sound a bit less artificial. And then also it helped to turn down the reverb knob. But then the instrument also loses some of its character. The Abbey Road Studio room of the Garritan CFX sounds a lot more natural to me.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735149 05/08/18 05:27 PM
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Can you remove the ambience and make it just close mic'd? And perhaps use convolution reverb from an external source instead?


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
karvala #2735175 05/08/18 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by karvala
Can you remove the ambience and make it just close mic'd? And perhaps use convolution reverb from an external source instead?


Yes if I turn down the reverb, it's almost entirely dry. I have no experience with external reverb software. Do you have any recommendations?

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735180 05/08/18 07:33 PM
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I usually use the builtin stuff, but if I have to go external I'll use Reflektor or Replika because they come as part of Komplete. However, people say good things about Valhalla reverb, so that might be worth a look though I haven't tried it myself.. It will all be artificial so inherently inferior to the Abbey Road Studio One reverb in the Garritan. Might be better than an unpleasant natural room, though.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735240 05/09/18 06:01 AM
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Grazilerimba... the Abbey Road Studios and Synchron Stage Vienna are two of the best rooms in the world!!, but, you could try with Altiverb or Valhalla room. I honestly think it's a matter of setting, also depends if you listen to it with headphone or through the piano speakers and the acoustic interaction of your room.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
Grazilerimba #2735248 05/09/18 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Grazilerimba
I must say the more I play this instrument the more attached I get to it. It has a really nice touch, and the dynamic range is mighty. And I didn't even change anything about it, it's at 100 (factory default) and you can crank it up even higher, I think up to 200 or something. This is wild.


That's great. After the initial impressions, it's all about how it feels for you to play it. Do you feel at home, inspired by the sound, amazed by it? That's all that matters when you make comparisons.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735300 05/09/18 11:47 AM
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Would love to hear from anyone who pony'd up for the full version. If I were going to invest, I'd get that as I like a fairly dry sound and it seems like you'd want the additional close/mid mics in the mix. It's a lot of cash to gamble with.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735338 05/09/18 02:28 PM
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@karvala, thank you. Valhalla is something I read often around here, should check it out. And I agree, it will probably not replicate the experience of Garritan's natural hall reverb, but it's something I always wanted to try so I think now would be a good opportunity.

@pold, yes that's true. I do feel inspired when playing it. I think both the Vienna Imperial and the VSL CFX have great dynamic ranges which makes for a really authentic playing experience in that one regard. I'm still struggling with the other flaws, but perhaps they'll improve some stuff too.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735344 05/09/18 02:44 PM
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I bought a new Samsung 860 pro 512 GB SSD today....just in case. grin
The posts untill now still not convince me the VSL CFX is what i need and like based on the few demo's ,but i'll wait some more until more reviews come in.
Sound and recording stage are the most important aspects to me and outweigh pedal behaviour and the last percentages of near perfect playability.
The Garritan CFX plays so smooth and sounds gorgeous, the VSL really needs to be an improvement to spend that amount of money.....


Last edited by pianistje; 05/09/18 02:46 PM.
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
jfl #2735351 05/09/18 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jfl
Would love to hear from anyone who pony'd up for the full version. If I were going to invest, I'd get that as I like a fairly dry sound and it seems like you'd want the additional close/mid mics in the mix. It's a lot of cash to gamble with.

Well, against my better judgement and in spite of the disappointment I had with Vienna Imperial I got the full version.
I got the standard library first, I liked it and couldn't resist buying the whole shebang!

Out of the box, the piano feels difficult to control - I discovered that the Dynamic at 100, the default, is way to high for playing IMO, so I set it to 80 (after going back and forth with the acoustic) and the piano is now much more controllable and smooth. I believe it could go even lower.
I didn't feel that there are notes sticking out (with Dynamic at 80) only the normal slight unevenness common to all pianos - this is way, way, way better than Vienna Imperial, but not as heavenly smooth as Garritan CFX.
Compared to Garritan, it's difficult to say which one is better for playing - they are very different rendition of the same instrument.
Garritan is smoother, has better tone but lacks ppp and fff - VSL is real fun to play because of how it responds to any nuance - it's the best VST I've ever played in that respect - although the tone is less full, but still good.

To respond to your request, I recorded a short staccato piece from a midi file (from Yamaha International Piano-e-Competition), to show how dry it can get (and how wet).
The difference form default are: Dynamic 80, Body 40% (this doesn't change the tone, just brings the piano together)

Some examples with single mic positions in isolation:

Close1
Close2
Mid1
Mid2
Main
Surround

They mix very well together.
This is Close1 0dB + Main -7.5dB 21ms delay
Close1_Main

This is four mics mixed together: Close1 + Mid1 + Main + RoomMix at various levels and delay - only Close1 is at 0dB and 0ms, the others are at a lower level and different delays.
It is the one I've been using for playing in the last few days.
Composite


Yamaha C3M - Kawai Novus - VSL CFX & Steinway D - Garritan CFX - Pianoteq Pro - American Concert D - Ravenscroft 275
PC -> Sonarworks Reference 4 -> RME Babyface Pro -> Schiit Yggdrasil + Jotunheim -> Sennheiser HD650 & HD800
Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735356 05/09/18 03:51 PM
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Wow, Erard. Just noticed your signature - that is quite the collection! smile
Coming from all of that, your impressions are definitely high praise.

I'm not in any danger of buying another VST soon, but just out of curiosity, between Garritan, VSL and Pianoteq:
1. Which is the best to play? Which is most immersive when playing?
2. Which is the best sounding from a player perspective when playing?
3. How does the pedal work? Is it fully functional? And what about the resonances?

I'm really looking forward to hearing recordings done with it.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735398 05/09/18 08:09 PM
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Thanks very much indeed for the demos Erard. Exactly what I was looking for.

VSL should take note and add this sort of comparative sampling on their site.

I too like both the mixes, more than any of the individual mic samples. They're fairly dry with just enough presence for a pleasing sound.

Both mixes were apparently made with the standard option mics. The two close mics are pretty similar sounding to my ear, with close-2 having just a bit more air. But it seems like you can get there with the Close-1/Room mix.

Have you found a mix you like more that uses the additional voices in the full package that stands out from the standard package mixes?. I'm now thinking I'd be happy with the standard package and save some money.

Re: New incoming Yamaha CFX vst from VSL
slobajudge #2735408 05/09/18 09:08 PM
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Indeed very much appreciated Erard !!
That was very good sounding and i liked your personal choice very much.

It does sound so different compared to the Garritan CFX.
Better details, less warmth and smoothness.
Choices,..... choices.....

I am hesitating after three recent purchases that didn't worked out at all ( Grand Rhapsody, Ravenscroft and Hammersmith). but it says a lot more about me i guess.....
Luckily all the info is very helpfull and the more critical aspects are also mentioned.
I guess within a week or two just before the cheaper deadline ends , we will have some rounded overall opinions after users have found their ideal settings and things that won't get any better.

I will keep my eye on this topic for sure.
Over at VI Control some user did mention the thin and digital sounding upper octaves,.... that is indeed a major concern !

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