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Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge #2735197
05/08/18 09:15 PM
05/08/18 09:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,836
Michigan
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kpembrook Offline OP
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I'm referring to the section above the tenor where the bridge notching is angled rather than being perpendicular to the strings of the unison ... thus resulting in slightly (about 2mm) different speaking lengths for each string.

I've always thought it was kind of a goofball feature but OTOH, never thought it sounded particularly bad.

Anyway, I now have an SD6 in my shop. Scope of work includes removing bridge pins ... so I could re-notch if I wanted to. But....

Is there any point? Will I (or anyone else) be able to hear a difference?
(This piano will be going into a modest size lesson/small ensemble rehearsal room)

Let the comments begin!


Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2735202
05/08/18 09:54 PM
05/08/18 09:54 PM
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Steinway did that for a long time on their Ds. The change was in the 1930s. I do not hear any difference between them.


Semipro Tech
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2735498
05/10/18 10:17 AM
05/10/18 10:17 AM
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Boy I sure notice a difference. One just can't get as clean a unison with the staggered lengths. And the unisons seem less stable once tuned. I notice it most with the lowest notes in the section.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2735525
05/10/18 01:02 PM
05/10/18 01:02 PM
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Well, people can decide for themselves. 8:00 pm, May 21, Berkeley City Club.


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Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2736034
05/12/18 08:41 PM
05/12/18 08:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 452
Rockville, MD
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I'm not the pro you are, but I have to wonder what Baldwin was up to with that design. Ed McMorrow writes about what I first thought - "would that admittedly minute difference in speaking length affect the ability to tune a true unison"?

Putting Ed's experience (respectfully) to the side, let's say you COULD tune true unisons successfully. So, what OTHER difference could there be in the sound? Does the 4mm difference between the lower and upper strings of a tri-chord result in a brighter sound? better projection? If you "clean up" the original design will your Baldwin still sound like a Baldwin? Trouble is, you won't know until you've made your move.

Wish I could be more helpful. You've raised an interesting question I think.


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
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1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2736115
05/13/18 08:45 AM
05/13/18 08:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
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New Hampshire
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Another question to try to answer is: Why did they eventually (Steinway too) abandon the design? Because it didn't work? Because too many tuners complained? Because artists complained? Because competing sales people used it against them? Because the only guy in the factory that could do it retired?

Any other ideas?

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2736194
05/13/18 01:24 PM
05/13/18 01:24 PM
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Oakland
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I suspect it was done to fit the notches on the bridge more easily, or to make them easier to carve. It lasted 50 years on the Steinways, through the era of some of the greatest pianists in history, so it could not have made that much difference.


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Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: BDB] #2736226
05/13/18 04:29 PM
05/13/18 04:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
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Seattle, WA USA
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Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
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Actually it is more difficult to carve. When you angle the chisel to the angled speaking length, keeping the chisel away from cutting the edge of the notch is more difficult. One ends up applying a force vector not inline with the chisel path.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2736260
05/13/18 08:13 PM
05/13/18 08:13 PM
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Oakland
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That could be, but really, it is unlikely anyone knows for sure. I was thinking of the way that the carver's body might be positioned.


Semipro Tech
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2738817
05/23/18 03:06 AM
05/23/18 03:06 AM
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Oakland
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[Linked Image]

This is the Steinway I mentioned. It sounded great at the concert tonight.


Semipro Tech
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: BDB] #2740251
05/29/18 01:55 AM
05/29/18 01:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
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Michigan
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kpembrook Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BDB
[Linked Image]

This is the Steinway I mentioned. It sounded great at the concert tonight.


Ed is right. Anyone who has ever whittled a bridge would agree the angle is more difficult.

Thanks for your photo and comments about the S&S D.
Given that I have latitude to do what is appropriate to the venue, I'm thinking I'll leave it alone. Probably would be a different story if bridge/soundboard replacement were in the specified scope of work.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
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Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2742939
06/08/18 01:30 AM
06/08/18 01:30 AM
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So guess what I tuned today! A 1923 Baldwin D.

[Linked Image]

Unequal string lengths!

Here are some more details of the plate and strings. Notice the removable strut, going to the center of the tenor section. That is like some of the very early Steinway Ds.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Not the same as the Steinway D, though. The bass strings are 8, 6, and 6, not 8, 5, and 7.


Semipro Tech
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2742984
06/08/18 08:53 AM
06/08/18 08:53 AM
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GC13 Offline
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Robert Estrin posted a video this week of a Baldwin model SD concert grand he has for sale from the 1930's. I noticed it has the same removable strut (like a Steinway D), and unequal string lengths. The hitch-pin arrangement on the plate seems interesting. Is that due to the "unequal" string lengths? It sounds like a lovely piano in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU2qjQWJ_jU

Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: BDB] #2744933
06/16/18 05:12 PM
06/16/18 05:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 25
California
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McKnight Offline
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Here's my 1937 SD with original bridge design

[Linked Image]

And my 1966 SD6 with the "fix"

[Linked Image]

The '37 has the strut

[Linked Image]

The '66 does not

[Linked Image]

Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: McKnight] #2744935
06/16/18 05:21 PM
06/16/18 05:21 PM
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Oakland
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Do you notice any differences in the sound that could be attributed to the changes in design?


Semipro Tech
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: BDB] #2744993
06/16/18 09:28 PM
06/16/18 09:28 PM
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California
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No. Too many design changes with the rebuild. The string terminations are completely different at both ends - front and rear duplexes eliminated. The capo bar was so trashed that it was ground down and a steel rod was inserted. The soundboard was redesigned.

The 1966 was an extremely weak piano before the rebuild vs the 1937. I played on another '66 SD6 in the bay area several months ago and it too was very weak. Baldwin was focused on the SD10 at that point I guess.

Last edited by McKnight; 06/16/18 09:30 PM.
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2745258
06/18/18 08:08 AM
06/18/18 08:08 AM
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It looks like the '66 has vertical hitch pins. I didn't think those came along until the SD10. That's interesting.

Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: GC13] #2745298
06/18/18 10:25 AM
06/18/18 10:25 AM
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Michigan
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kpembrook Offline OP
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Originally Posted by GC13
It looks like the '66 has vertical hitch pins. I didn't think those came along until the SD10. That's interesting.

Probably vertical hitch pins were installed on the rebuild?


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
Editor Emeritus, Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Baldwin SD6 low treble bridge [Re: kpembrook] #2745791
06/20/18 04:44 AM
06/20/18 04:44 AM
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California
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Yes


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