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Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2706657 01/20/18 01:55 AM
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The 603 is a good suggestion, but the OP said even the 601 is over his price limit and would have to negotiate it, and I don't think vendors will sell the "old" 603 under the price of the 601, but hey, it's worth a try!
The 601 is also better than the 504, as it has Roland's new generation of top action, better speakers and bluetooth. I would add that probably a slight further discount can be had from the price in the first post (maybe 100 euros less)

@Lolatu, sound in the 504 is 12 watts, but even so, it's more than loud enough. I keep it at 70-80 volume and it's very loud. And yes, it's definitely the best pick from the list as far as I'm concerned, the key action is one of the best on the market and it can always be used with a computer for the best sound as well (as I do).

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Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
GoldmanT #2706685 01/20/18 04:26 AM
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It is true about recording... CA17 is on the same level as CN27..
You can either record MIDI ( via MIDI cable or USB MIDI or Bluetooth MIDI ) or record audio via the jacks...
Neither Line Out nor recording to USB. I think lack of Line Out is the most painful... And even CA48 is on the same level, even without Line Out smirk
The new CA58 is going to add Line in + Line Out + USB audio recording, but is not available yet and is going to be definitely over budget.

If better audio (non-MIDI) recording than via jacks is a requirement, CN37 seems to be the only option from Kawai.

If I was about to decide within the OP's budget, the strongest contender from Kawai for me would be probably CA17 still, mostly due to RM3 Grand II action and HI-XL sampling.


Kawai KDP-90
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733531 05/02/18 10:34 AM
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Hi all,

I know it's been a while, but a lot has happened in the meantime. Because of various reasons, the budget for a digital piano, which I haven't yet bought, has been decreased a bit.

What this essentially means for me is that the only options right now are the entry level instruments, namely the Roland F140R (or RP501R - the prices are very similar), the Kawai KDP110 and the Yamaha CLP625. The only one that I haven't managed to test at all is the new Kawai, since no local shop here has one up in their showrooms.

Any final advice or recommendation before I go ahead and order one of the Rolands? smile

Thank you,
Iordanis

Last edited by iordanisg; 05/02/18 11:39 AM.
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733556 05/02/18 12:05 PM
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What about a Kawai ES8 (1439€) with a cheap stand (40-80€) to begin with, with the option to upgrade to the furniture stand (119€) plus pedal unit (125€) later, if money permits?
(Prices are current Thomann prices.)


Kawai Novus NV10
My amateur piano recordings on YouTube
Latest Recording: "Prélude (Opus 28, No. 4)" by Frédéric Chopin
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733770 05/03/18 02:17 AM
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@JoBert, to be honest I never considered the ES8. It looks great, but unfortunately its cost is higher than my current budget.

Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733783 05/03/18 03:24 AM
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Ah sorry, I hadn’t realized that the 1500€ budget from the subject was your old budget that you now had to decrease. Sorry.


Kawai Novus NV10
My amateur piano recordings on YouTube
Latest Recording: "Prélude (Opus 28, No. 4)" by Frédéric Chopin
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733794 05/03/18 05:17 AM
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I would still go for the YDP163.

It has the same keyboard action as the 625. So all you are really getting for the extra money is a slightly different cabinet design, and slightly more oompf in the speakers.

I tried both when I was looking to get mine, and the YDP163 seemed like the better choice.

A year on I am very very happy with it.

Clearly, it isn't a Novus NV10!

But it is very playable.

Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733805 05/03/18 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by iordanisg
@JoBert, to be honest I never considered the ES8. It looks great, but unfortunately its cost is higher than my current budget.


Another option is to get a refurbished ES8 on Ebay. One is going for 1295.48 Euro currently.

Tbh though, I've never really understood why people put an arbitrary budget (rather than a range) on a digital piano purchase: just save up for a few more months and bingo, you can cover the small shortfall.
Every piano on your list is not as good as the ES8 or FP90. For the sake of a few more months, you'd have an instrument that would last you longer and be more involving to play.
Your other option is second hand: many people sell digital instruments after only a few years of use. If you take your time, you can get a stunning deal.

Bare in mind that if you buy new, the immediate depreciation on the pianos you've listed may prevent you from being easily able to resell to buy something dearer, as you will have lost a chunk of cash! For instance: if you spend 1000 euro on a digital, you'll probably only get 600--700 on resale even if you sold it only 6 months later. I know this because I brought a one year old MP7 on Ebay for £750. The seller had paid around £1300 a year earlier. He'd had the instrument for many months prior to my purchase as I had been tracking it for quite a while.

Last edited by Doug M.; 05/03/18 06:46 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733808 05/03/18 06:59 AM
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@Doug M., you do have a point, but the thing is that I've delayed this purchase since January and I feel I can't wait any longer smile

Joking aside, I can definitely see that the ES8 is a better instrument. Since portable pianos are now into the picture, how do they compare to the more expensive pianos I had in my list initially and the ones that other people mentioned, e.g. Roland HP603, Kawai CN37, etc?

Thank you,
Iordanis

Last edited by iordanisg; 05/03/18 07:00 AM.
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733809 05/03/18 07:17 AM
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I was also thinking at the CN37 / CLP 635 and saw the ES8. The specs look great, but it doesn't look like a piano (for me). Too much plastic for me and if you buy with the cabinet it's too expensive and the plastic remains smile Unfortunately I can't find any refurbished CA67 or newer in my country...

Last edited by gtn11; 05/03/18 07:17 AM.
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
iordanisg #2733822 05/03/18 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by iordanisg
@Doug M., you do have a point, but the thing is that I've delayed this purchase since January and I feel I can't wait any longer smile

Joking aside, I can definitely see that the ES8 is a better instrument. Since portable pianos are now into the picture, how do they compare to the more expensive pianos I had in my list initially and the ones that other people mentioned, e.g. Roland HP603, Kawai CN37, etc?

Thank you,
Iordanis


In general, you pay a premium for the cabinet bit of the cabinet digital piano. Thus, price for price, a portable should have more functions, better action etc. A stage piano will give you even more bang for your buck as you'll need a stand, damper pedal and headphones/speakers on top. I would only advise a cabinet piano for those concerned with aesthetics or those who want a top end piano with amazing amplification (Avant Grand, Novus etc, LX17, CS11 etc). At the lower end of the market, you definitely gain by going portable or stage.

For instance, the Kawai MP7SE is a much more powerful instrument than the Kawai ES8 but they are more or less the same price (the Es8 with stand and accessories vs just the MP7SE board.
One can always save up for nicer stands, headphones, damper pedals, bags, stools, speakers etc over time. That's why I went stage instead of portable (plus I wanted the opportunity to gig).

There are really only 2 very good portable pianos in the market presently (Roland FP90 and Kawai ES8); although there are some others worth looking into e.g., the Roland FP80; Roland FP60; Kawai ES7. Yamaha's offering (the P255) is ancient comparatively and soon might get an update.
Another approach is to by a piano controller: the Kawai VPC1, and hook it up to a laptop or personal computer. Then you use a VSTi (virtual studio technology instrument) such as Pianoteq; Garritan CFX, Ivory II, Galaxy D etc to give you sounds. The advantage of this approach is that you get a really high quality sound and a great piano action for the cost. The downside is that it requires some looking into and some set-up.

Your other option on finance is to buy using finance to offset the cost over a longer period, or liquidate other assets to gain enough for the better model. Myself, I went second hand because I wasn't prepared to wait and because there was lots of good options at the time.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
Doug M. #2734536 05/06/18 12:54 PM
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[quote=Doug M.] In general, you pay a premium for the cabinet bit of the cabinet digital piano. Thus, price for price, a portable should have more functions, better action etc. A stage piano will give you even more bang for your buck as you'll need a stand, damper pedal and headphones/speakers on top. I would only advise a cabinet piano for those concerned with aesthetics or those who want a top end piano with amazing amplification (Avant Grand, Novus etc, LX17, CS11 etc). At the lower end of the market, you definitely gain by going portable or stage./quote]

I disagree with this point. I've owned both stage and home DPs. Medium-priced furniture-style DPs sound and feel better than ever now, look good (spouses are pleased), and are self-contained since you only need a bench, which is often provided free by dealers. I recently bought a Korg G1 Air, which I think is wonderful and retails in USA for $1,399. Yamaha Arius YDP-14X, 16X, 18X are excellent, as are Roland's HP range and Casio Privia. Kawai has superb consoles, much discussed on this forum.

Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
gtn11 #2734710 05/06/18 11:25 PM
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Just a quick comment on this point:

Originally Posted by gtn11
[The ES8 has] Too much plastic for me and if you buy with the cabinet it's too expensive and the plastic remains smile


It's perhaps worth noting that the ES8 is made from metal (aluminium and steel) and wood (side panels). I don't believe there is any plastic used in the cabinet - at least not in a visible area. The stand and pedal unit are also made of wood and metal. Granted, the ES8 (and stand+pedal unit) does not have the traditional piano look of a CN or CLP instrument, but that's a separate argument.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
Kawai James #2735005 05/08/18 06:54 AM
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Yes, James, I love to see the traditional look of the piano, that's why I ordered the CN37 laugh My baby it's on the road right now and hope that this friday I will have it!

Re: Please help me select the best digital piano under 1500E
moleskincrusher #2735052 05/08/18 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by moleskincrusher
[quote=Doug M.] In general, you pay a premium for the cabinet bit of the cabinet digital piano. Thus, price for price, a portable should have more functions, better action etc. A stage piano will give you even more bang for your buck as you'll need a stand, damper pedal and headphones/speakers on top. I would only advise a cabinet piano for those concerned with aesthetics or those who want a top end piano with amazing amplification (Avant Grand, Novus etc, LX17, CS11 etc). At the lower end of the market, you definitely gain by going portable or stage./quote]

I disagree with this point. I've owned both stage and home DPs. Medium-priced furniture-style DPs sound and feel better than ever now, look good (spouses are pleased), and are self-contained since you only need a bench, which is often provided free by dealers. I recently bought a Korg G1 Air, which I think is wonderful and retails in USA for $1,399. Yamaha Arius YDP-14X, 16X, 18X are excellent, as are Roland's HP range and Casio Privia. Kawai has superb consoles, much discussed on this forum.


Well, in terms of the Kawai ES8 and Kawai MP7, the stage certainly has more functionality than the portable. Certainly, the stage has way more functionality than the equivalent CA series cabinet model (CA17).
I don't know about the Yamaha: guess it depends upon which stage instrument and portable instrument you look at. Korg for me are just poor quality in action and I wouldn't personally buy one for learning piano (although perhaps for other reasons).

Comparing the ES8 with the CA17 (similar price range):

Action:
CA17: RM3 Grand II action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor
ES8: 88 keys with Ivory Touch surface, RHIII action with Let-Off and Triple Sensor

Polyphony:
CA17: 192
ES8: 256

Virtual technician:
CA17: Touch, Voicing, Damper Resonance, Damper Noise, String Resonance, Key-off Effect (incl. Key-off Release), Fall-back Noise, Stretch Tuning
ES8: Voicing per key, Damper Resonance, Damper Noise, String Resonance, Key-off Effect, Fall-back Noise, Hammer Delay, Topboard, Decay Time, Soft Pedal Depth, Minimum Touch, Tuning, Volume and Tune of each key

Other functions:
CA17: Tuning, Transpose, Brilliance, SHS Mode, Phones Type, Sound Preview, Vocal Assist, Startup Settings, Auto Power Off , Transmit Program Change Number, MIDI Channel, Local Control, Multi-timbral mode
ES8: 28 registration memories, Keybopard/Song Transpose, Equaliser (incl. User EQ), Wall EQ, Speaker Volume, Phones Volume, Line Out Volume, Audio Recording Level, Tuning, Damper Pedal, 4-Hand Mode, Saving of custom settings, Factory Reset, Left Hand Octave, Left Hand Pedal, Split Balance, Layer Octave, Layer Dynamics, Dual Balance, MIDI chanel, Program change send, Local Control Mode, Multi Timbre Mode, Chanel Mute, Automatic Power On/Off, Speaker On/Off

USB functions;
CA17: Blank
ES8: Playback: MP3, WAV, SMF ; Recording: MP3, WAV ; Functions: Audio Overdub, Song to Audio Convertion, Load internal Songs, Save internal Songs, Save SMF Songs, Load Registration, Save Registration, Delete File, Format USB Memory

Metronome:
CA17: Beat: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 3/8, 6/8; Tempo: 10-300 bpm
ES8: Beats: 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 3/8, 6/8, 7/8, 9/8, 12/8 Tempo: 10-400 BPM

Jacks
CA17: MIDI (IN/OUT), USB to Host, Headphones x 2
ES8: USB to Host, USB to Device, MIDI (IN/OUT), LINE IN STEREO, LINE OUT (L/MONO, R), DAMPER (for F-10H), DAMPER/SOFT (for F-20), PEDAL (for F-301), Phones x 2, AC-adapter PS-154

Speaker:
CA17: 13 cm x 2 (full range speakers), 5 cm x 2 (tweeters)
ES8: 2 x (8x12)cm with Bass-Reflex-System, can be turned off

Amplification:
CA17: 20W x 2
ES8: 2 x 15 Watts

Internal Sounds
CA17; 8 acoustic piano sounds, 11 other sounds
ES8: Shigeru Kawai EX, Kawai EX, Shigeru Kawai SK-5, Jazz Clean, Warm Grand, Pop Grand, Upright Piano, Pop Grand 2, Modern Piano, Rock Piano; E-Piano x 4, Organ x 4, Harpsichord/Mallets x 4, Strings/Choir x 8, Bass x 4


Basically this analysis underlines my point perfectly: For nearly the same money, the portable ES8 has greater functionality. Where the cabinet CA17 is slightly better is in its action (due to being slightly deeper, thus having room for the RMIII grand action), and in the speaker and amplification (10Watts difference). Actually, in almost all other respects, the CA17 is an inferior instrument to the ES8 despite being of similar cost. The action on the ES8 is very very good and you can upgrade the amplification to match the CA17 pretty easily.

When I say functionality, I mean the utility the instrument provides (i.e., not sound quality, not speakers). For instance, Virtual technician, recording functions, registration memories, EQ ability etc etc. Like for like, the ES8 has the same sound engine as the CA17, meaning with headphones on, they will sound the same. If you prefer greater functionality, there is always the possibility to upgrade speakers and amplification down the line.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
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