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Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
#2734531 05/06/18 01:43 PM
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I found this video on YouTube a while ago:



The first movement of Beethoven's 14th piano sonata has been, according to the description of this video, "transposed from its original C# minor to Db major."

According to the description of this video, this piece has been digitally changed. The result is not perfect because the music seems to be out of tune in some places.


I have devised an experimental method for manually reharmonising each section:

1. Divide every section into intervals, for example, minor thirds, perfect fifths and major sevenths.

2. Do not change the perfect fourths, tritones, perfect fifths and octaves.

3. Replace all minor intervals with major intervals and replace all major intervals with minor intervals. For example, replace every minor second with a major second and replace every major third with a minor third.


Could this method be used to reharmonise any piece of music?


Example 1:

Chord: B-E-G-C.


Minor third: E-G.

Perfect fourths: B-E and G-C.

Minor ninth: B-C.


Minor third -> major third: E-G -> E-G#.

Minor ninth -> major ninth: B-C -> B-C#.


Reharmonised chord: B-E-G#-C#.


Example 2:

Chord: B-E-G-Bb.


Minor third: E-G.

Perfect fourth: B-E.

Tritone: E-Bb.


Minor third -> Major third: E-G -> E-G#.


Reharmonised chord: B-E-G#-Bb.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734533 05/06/18 01:49 PM
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I don’t know if it could be done, by the formula that you suggest but if the result is the same as the re-harmonization you posted, the question is why anyone would want to. I found the link you posted to be painful to listen to and indeed Beethoven is probably rolling over in his grave.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734537 05/06/18 01:56 PM
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Why?


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Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Vid #2734541 05/06/18 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Vid
Why?


Moonlight sonata -> Sunlight sonata.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734546 05/06/18 02:24 PM
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I think you would be better off exploring how composers use harmonies and how these can relate to scale degrees. Major key pieces invariably modulate to (or slip into) minor keys and vice versa for minor key pieces. Your method of artificially changing a minor key piece to major isn't going to be very pleasing - that recording you shared grates on my ears.


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Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734614 05/06/18 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
I found the link you posted to be painful to listen to and indeed Beethoven is probably rolling over in his grave.


Originally Posted by Vid
Your method of artificially changing a minor key piece to major isn't going to be very pleasing - that recording you shared grates on my ears.


I am putting emotions/feelings aside in order to completely focus on the viability of the method I have proposed. I want to explore the possibility of seamlessly switching between major and minor keys. I think this can be achieved by using the method I have proposed.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Vid #2734641 05/06/18 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Vid
[...] Your method of artificially changing a minor key piece to major isn't going to be very pleasing - that recording you shared grates on my ears.


I agree. Moreover, in the video in the OP, the harmonic progressions are wrong and make no musical sense.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734656 05/06/18 07:39 PM
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Mystic Chord: C-F#-Bb-E-A-D.


Minor sevenths: C-Bb, F#-E, E-D.

Major seventh: Bb-A.


Minor sevenths -> major sevenths: C-Bb -> C-B, F#-E -> F-E, E-D -> E-D#.

Major seventh -> Minor seventh: Bb-A -> B-A.


Reharmonised Mystic Chord: C-F-B-E-A-D#.



Tristan Chord: F-B-D#-G#.


Major third: B-D#.

Perfect fourth: D#-G#.

Tritone: F-B.


Major third -> minor third: B-D# -> C-D#.

Reharmonised Tristan Chord: F-C-D#-G#.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734664 05/06/18 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
I want to explore the possibility of seamlessly switching between major and minor keys. I think this can be achieved by using the method I have proposed.

Think again.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Polyphonist #2734671 05/06/18 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
I want to explore the possibility of seamlessly switching between major and minor keys. I think this can be achieved by using the method I have proposed.

Think again.


I have thought about my method again and tested it by reharmonising the Mystic Chord and the Tristan Chord. It seems to be working quite well.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734712 05/07/18 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
I want to explore the possibility of seamlessly switching between major and minor keys. I think this can be achieved by using the method I have proposed.

Think again.


I have thought about my method again and tested it by reharmonising the Mystic Chord and the Tristan Chord. It seems to be working quite well.

I'm sorry. Everyone has been way too polite about this. The method used with the Beethoven sonata quite clearly doesn't work, so by extension similar methods will not work universally. Not even close. The result in the Beethoven example is awful IMO.

Moving to your last claim, when we first hear the Tristan chord in context, what key are we thinking it's in? Then, when we hear the next few bars, can we even then say what's going on tonally? More importantly, what MODE is the Tristan chord in?

(1) This is a solution in search of a problem. (2) The solution itself sucks, IMO. I honestly think, with the ingenuity you have shown in developing this process, you could develop genuinely interesting and useful theories, like clearing up some of the anomalies inherent in Schenkerian reductive analysis or something like that. But this? I'm in Polyphonist's corner. Think again dude.


SRF
Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734715 05/07/18 12:57 AM
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Roshan Kakiya's posts remind me of a talk I heard the composer Frank Martin give back when I was a student. He said that he always insisted that his composition students would know what their music sounded like, a comment that seemed inane at the time. Yet somehow there are people who still come up with theories of music and composition that seem totally divorced from the sounds they espouse.


Semipro Tech
Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734831 05/07/18 01:33 PM
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The first movement of Beethoven's 14th piano sonata played backwards:




Beethoven's Für Elise played backwards:


Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734861 05/07/18 03:45 PM
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Are you trying to troll us now?


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Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734867 05/07/18 04:15 PM
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I agree with almost all posts that bash the OP.

Using an algorithm to reharmonize a piece of music? Excellent exercise to show that computers are not musical. A piece of music is not just composed of single chords; it's a sequence of chords. Replacing chords with different chords makes as much sense as translating words from one language into another, without changing the original word order and grammar. You get gibberish.

Therefore to the OP:
Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
I am putting emotions/feelings aside in order to completely focus on the viability of the method I have proposed. I want to explore the possibility of seamlessly switching between major and minor keys. I think this can be achieved by using the method I have proposed.
No it can't.


My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
My other Yamaha is an XMAX 300.
Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
patH #2734969 05/08/18 02:50 AM
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I have reharmonised a section of the 1st movement of Beethoven's 14th piano sonata:

https://onlinesequencer.net/811030

The transitions seems to be coherent. This online sequencer has automatically detected C# major so my method seems to be working.

I needed to adapt my method to each section.


Example 1:

I have changed A-B-D#-F# to Bb-C-D#-F#. I have done this by changing a major third to a minor third (B-D# to C-D#) and a major sixth to a minor sixth (A-F# to Bb-F#).

The next section contains a major ninth: A-B. I could have changed this to a minor ninth such as A-Bb or Bb-B. However, these intervals seem to be clashing with the previous chord (Bb-C-D#-F#).

Therefore, I have followed Beethoven's structure for this specific section.

Original version: A-B-D#-F# to A-B (ninth).

Reharmonised version: Bb-C-D#-F# to Bb-C (ninth).


Example 2:

Original left hand side: C#-G#-C# to C-G#-C. Difference: minor second (C# to C).

Reharmonised left hand side: C#-G#-C# to B-G#-B. Difference: major second (C# to B).


Original right hand side: G#-C#-E-G# to G#-D#-F#-G#.

Reharmonised right hand side: G#-C#-F-G# to G#-D-F#-G#.

I have changed a minor third to a major third (C#-E to C#-F).

I have also changed another minor third to a major third (D#-F# to D-F#).

I could have changed D#-F# to D#-G but I did not do this because the G on the right hand side clashes with the G# on the left hand side.


Example 3:

Original chord: A-C#-F#-A.

Reharmonised chord: Bb-C#-F#-Bb.

I have changed a major third to a minor third (A-C# to Bb-C#). I have also changed a minor third to a major third (F#-A to F#-Bb). I have not changed the perfect fourth (C#-F#).


Example 4:

Original chord: G#-B-E-G#.

Reharmonised chord: G#-C-F-G#.

I have changed a minor third to a major third (G#-B to G#-C). I have also changed a major third to a minor third (E-G# to F-G#).


It is a laborious process. You have to ensure the right hand side agrees with the left hand side.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2734992 05/08/18 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
I have reharmonised a section of the 1st movement of Beethoven's 14th piano sonata:

https://onlinesequencer.net/811030

The transitions seems to be coherent. This online sequencer has automatically detected C# major so my method seems to be working.


To my ears, that harmonization does not work. The base is not correct, and what you have I do not find pleasing to hear. As a sidenote, I don’t believe that you’re recognizing that a piece is a written in either major or minor for a reason.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2735015 05/08/18 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
To my ears, that harmonization does not work. The base is not correct, and what you have I do not find pleasing to hear. As a sidenote, I don’t believe that you’re recognizing that a piece is a written in either major or minor for a reason.


Emotions/feelings are subjective. You have to put those aside in order to understand my method. I think the fragment I have created sounds beautiful. However, I was not thinking about emotions/feelings related to the music when I was creating it. I was only thinking about major and minor intervals and how the previous section can be linked to the current section that I am reharmonising in order to make every transition coherent.

You also need to forget everything you have learned about music theory when you are applying the method I have proposed except for major and minor intervals. You should just think about major and minor intervals and nothing else when you are doing this. You should think about the rest of music theory after you have applied this method.

Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
Roshan Kakiya #2735045 05/08/18 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
Originally Posted by dogperson
To my ears, that harmonization does not work. The base is not correct, and what you have I do not find pleasing to hear. As a sidenote, I don’t believe that you’re recognizing that a piece is a written in either major or minor for a reason.


Emotions/feelings are subjective. You have to put those aside in order to understand my method. I think the fragment I have created sounds beautiful. However, I was not thinking about emotions/feelings related to the music when I was creating it. I was only thinking about major and minor intervals and how the previous section can be linked to the current section that I am reharmonising in order to make every transition coherent.

You also need to forget everything you have learned about music theory when you are applying the method I have proposed except for major and minor intervals. You should just think about major and minor intervals and nothing else when you are doing this. You should think about the rest of music theory after you have applied this method.


I am not thinking about music theory but just the way it sounds. I think you say that you were just doing this as an exercise but not take into consideration why it was written in the key it was written in And what the impact musically of having the key change makes, just doesn’t make this method successful

This is the last I will say on the subject


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
Re: Reharmonising the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 27, No. 2
dogperson #2735053 05/08/18 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Roshan Kakiya
Originally Posted by dogperson
To my ears, that harmonization does not work. The base is not correct, and what you have I do not find pleasing to hear. As a sidenote, I don’t believe that you’re recognizing that a piece is a written in either major or minor for a reason.


Emotions/feelings are subjective. You have to put those aside in order to understand my method. I think the fragment I have created sounds beautiful. However, I was not thinking about emotions/feelings related to the music when I was creating it. I was only thinking about major and minor intervals and how the previous section can be linked to the current section that I am reharmonising in order to make every transition coherent.

You also need to forget everything you have learned about music theory when you are applying the method I have proposed except for major and minor intervals. You should just think about major and minor intervals and nothing else when you are doing this. You should think about the rest of music theory after you have applied this method.


I am not thinking about music theory but just the way it sounds. I think you say that you were just doing this as an exercise but not take into consideration why it was written in the key it was written in And what the impact musically of having the key change makes, just doesn’t make this method successful.

This is the last I will say on the subject


Changing the key will not be very musically impactful if 12-tone equal temperament is used because there would be no distinctive key colours. This is because the size of every semitone would be, or would almost be, the same.

A key change could be more impactful if well temperaments are used because the size of every, or almost every, semitone would not be the same which could make distinctive key colours available and make reharmonised pieces more musically impactful. I think this would be more noticeable if well temperaments that deviate more from equal temperament, relative to other well temperaments, are used.

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