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Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2693587 12/01/17 11:04 PM
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I think the reason the vertically laminated bridges of the Conklin Baldwin grands fail is the gluing pressure used is often too low and the bridge pin pattern places some front and back row pins too close.

If one used urea resin wood glue, the lamination stock is properly milled, the gluing caul is properly sized, the gluing process is properly timed, enough pressure is applied by the clamps and the proper drying process/time is applied; the result should be every bit as rugged as the traditional capped bridge.

The nonsense claimed about superior speed of vibration along the bridge and the more solid transfer of vibrations to the board because there is no cap-to-bridge-body joint can be ignored. There still is the joint between the board and the bridge.

I see more instances of poor glue joints in Baldwins compared to Steinway and Mason&Hamlin going back to the early 20th century.


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Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2694208 12/04/17 01:39 PM
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In theory the Baldwin vertically laminated cap-less bridge made good sense. In practice the risk outweighed the potential benefit. All too often the treble bridge experienced breakage at the end along the lamination. Usually this involved two or three unisons at the outset, but in time the split would travel. These were sent back to the Conway factory for repair. I shan't comment upon how the factory elected to repair these. I would have handled it differently. My Baldwin (Hamilton) grand has a capped, horizontally laminated bridge. At 75 years old there are no splits and the absence of vertical bridge lamination does not inhibit dynamic range. Most aftermarket issues Baldwin experienced, especially in the 1990s, had mostly to do with cost cutting in production. Notwithstanding, many Baldwin grand pianos (SD-10 included) made it through the process with no serious problems, and if broken in and maintained properly are good pianos. Having said this, we suggest that all pianos - new and used - be independently tech-checked prior to purchase.


Bob W.
Piano Technician (Retired since 2006)
Conway, Arkansas
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2716995 02/24/18 11:17 PM
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Last weekend - we (family of 5) got into our van and traveled 1200 miles to check a few concert grands. First stop was at New Paltz (NY) to check 1990 SD10. We knew this SD since about 1 year ago and had watched its price went from $15K to $8K and now is back up to $12K. The soundboard has a long split but otherwise the inside is clean. The case is far from perfect. However, this piano sounds like a dog and it just did not feel right to our ears. My son's Steinway O sounds much much better.

We left New Paltz and drove to Connecticut (through the snow storm) to check 1974 Bluthner Model 1. We missed this piano when it was for sale last year (just by a few hours) but the new owner is now selling it at twice the price it was bought for. We were only 0.2 miles from the owner place but the road was so slippery that we had to turn back and stayed at a hotel. We went to Philly the next day to check a practically brand new 1980 Kawai GS100 (asking for $20K delivered). We instantly fell in love with it and everything felt right and made an offer for $18K and would purchase it at that price at that time had it been accepted. Owner reluctantly came down to $18.4K but we had asked for a day to think it over. On the way back, we visited the Bluther owner, who happens to have a SD10. We love the sound of the Bluthner but the case was beat up and the finish is cracking all over the place. The soundboard also has couple hairline splits but don't seem to be major. Since we knew how much the owner bought it for and he is now asking twice of his purchase price, we are reluctant to make an offer. Instead, we looked at the 1980 SD10. We absolutely love this SD10 and would have bought it if the price is in the range of the other SD10. Alas, the owner's parents won't sell but we decide to refocus on getting SD10. We went home without a piano but with a lot more knowledge.

On the way back, we got a text message that a SD10 in Texas that was sold the week before - is now available for sale again ($15K). This piano has some history and the last owner passed before even playing it. Setting aside that history, we made an offer for $12K - got rejected - and within a day got accepted (pending RPT checking the piano). Scheduled an RPT to check it out and turned out the person we have talked to is a tuner, who is helping the wife of the owner to sell it. The RPT insisted to come only without the tuner's presence in the house, or otherwise he won't do it. The tuner got offended and I backed out from the deal.

Couple days ago - we found another SD10 and got in contact with the owner. The owner is very responsive and friendly and sent a lot of pictures and created a recording for us. We made an offer, got a counter offer, and agreed on a price today (pending RPT checking the piano). As long as there is no more drama - it looks like that our journey to look for a concert grand is about to be completed. Will update in couple weeks.

The whole family thoroughly enjoys this journey of purchasing a concert grand. My wife and I will not want our son or daughters to be concert pianists, but we are thoroughly convinced about the value of learning music for their development (brain and characters). We also decide that if they were to learn instrument, then it should be the king of all instruments - the piano.

Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2717225 02/25/18 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Bagong
Last weekend - we (family of 5) got into our van and traveled 1200 miles to check a few concert grands. First stop was at New Paltz (NY) to check 1990 SD10. We knew this SD since about 1 year ago and had watched its price went from $15K to $8K and now is back up to $12K. The soundboard has a long split but otherwise the inside is clean. The case is far from perfect. However, this piano sounds like a dog and it just did not feel right to our ears. My son's Steinway O sounds much much better.

We left New Paltz and drove to Connecticut (through the snow storm) to check 1974 Bluthner Model 1. We missed this piano when it was for sale last year (just by a few hours) but the new owner is now selling it at twice the price it was bought for. We were only 0.2 miles from the owner place but the road was so slippery that we had to turn back and stayed at a hotel. We went to Philly the next day to check a practically brand new 1980 Kawai GS100 (asking for $20K delivered). We instantly fell in love with it and everything felt right and made an offer for $18K and would purchase it at that price at that time had it been accepted. Owner reluctantly came down to $18.4K but we had asked for a day to think it over. On the way back, we visited the Bluther owner, who happens to have a SD10. We love the sound of the Bluthner but the case was beat up and the finish is cracking all over the place. The soundboard also has couple hairline splits but don't seem to be major. Since we knew how much the owner bought it for and he is now asking twice of his purchase price, we are reluctant to make an offer. Instead, we looked at the 1980 SD10. We absolutely love this SD10 and would have bought it if the price is in the range of the other SD10. Alas, the owner's parents won't sell but we decide to refocus on getting SD10. We went home without a piano but with a lot more knowledge.

On the way back, we got a text message that a SD10 in Texas that was sold the week before - is now available for sale again ($15K). This piano has some history and the last owner passed before even playing it. Setting aside that history, we made an offer for $12K - got rejected - and within a day got accepted (pending RPT checking the piano). Scheduled an RPT to check it out and turned out the person we have talked to is a tuner, who is helping the wife of the owner to sell it. The RPT insisted to come only without the tuner's presence in the house, or otherwise he won't do it. The tuner got offended and I backed out from the deal.

Couple days ago - we found another SD10 and got in contact with the owner. The owner is very responsive and friendly and sent a lot of pictures and created a recording for us. We made an offer, got a counter offer, and agreed on a price today (pending RPT checking the piano). As long as there is no more drama - it looks like that our journey to look for a concert grand is about to be completed. Will update in couple weeks.

The whole family thoroughly enjoys this journey of purchasing a concert grand. My wife and I will not want our son or daughters to be concert pianists, but we are thoroughly convinced about the value of learning music for their development (brain and characters). We also decide that if they were to learn instrument, then it should be the king of all instruments - the piano.



Well, Bagong, please keep us informed of the next chapter in your Baldwin grandpiano search. I'll truly appreciate to follow your story!


Piano.Brazil
1987 Baldwin SD10, 2013 Mason&Hamlin BB, 2007 Euterpe/Bechstein 160, 1924 Hoepfner Upright
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2718132 03/01/18 06:37 PM
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Livingpianos has a Baldwin SD 10 added just today...made in 1975 with renner action

https://livingpianos.com/pianos/baldwin-sd-10-concert-grand-piano-212669/


Last edited by Mark...; 03/01/18 06:39 PM.
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Mark... #2718165 03/01/18 08:30 PM
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thank you for the mini recital from Santa Ana. have enjoyed estrin's performances on many different pianos and this is one of his best.

Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Mark... #2718199 03/01/18 10:33 PM
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[quote=Mark...]Livingpianos has a Baldwin SD 10 added just today...made in 1975 with renner action

https://livingpianos.com/pianos/baldwin-sd-10-concert-grand-piano-212669/

And they are asking $37,900.00 US. Someone should snap it up quickly!

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Mark... #2718242 03/02/18 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark...
Livingpianos has a Baldwin SD 10 added just today...made in 1975 with renner action

https://livingpianos.com/pianos/baldwin-sd-10-concert-grand-piano-212669/


To his credit, and unlike some of his videos, Mr. Estrin has seen to it that this piano was tuned properly before recording the video.

Last edited by Almaviva; 03/02/18 01:44 AM.
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2718304 03/02/18 07:59 AM
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What a great sounding concert grand. Can't imagine a better sounding piano.

Rich


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Anton Rubinstein said about the piano: "You think it is one instrument? It is a hundred instruments!"
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2718326 03/02/18 09:22 AM
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Very nice! I like that he has such an affinity for Baldwins. smile



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Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Almaviva #2718328 03/02/18 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Almaviva
Originally Posted by Mark...
Livingpianos has a Baldwin SD 10 added just today...made in 1975 with renner action

https://livingpianos.com/pianos/baldwin-sd-10-concert-grand-piano-212669/


To his credit, and unlike some of his videos, Mr. Estrin has seen to it that this piano was tuned properly before recording the video.


His father, Morton Estrin, was a Baldwin artist for most of his career, so it seems Robert really favors them. His personal piano is an SD-10.

Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2720901 03/13/18 04:50 PM
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What a joy to listen to that Baldwin concert grand... Great sounding instrument!


Piano.Brazil
1987 Baldwin SD10, 2013 Mason&Hamlin BB, 2007 Euterpe/Bechstein 160, 1924 Hoepfner Upright
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2724171 03/25/18 09:53 AM
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I am just returning from a trip to visit an old friend and colleague of mine in Laguna Niguel, CA and had the great privilege of visiting with Mr. Robert Estrin at Living Pianos in Santa Ana, CA. Very fun place to visit. Mr. Estrin is knowledgeable and welcoming. I visited and played his many vintage instruments for 2 1/2 hours, playing a wonderful 1967 Steinway D 9’ Concert Grand in his new performance and recording studio, a crystalline 1963 Bösendorfer 290 9’6 Imperial Grand, some very nice older Bluthner, Schimmel, Ronisch, Mason & Hamlin instruments and an very nice new 2017 Hailun 178. But there was one instrument there without peer, right beside the Bösendorfer Imperial... the very same 1975 Baldwin 9’ SD-10 referred to above. The Renner action was buttery smooth, quick and expressive, the bass was as big and powerful as the Steinway (and bigger than the Imperial), the tenor very singing and expressive, the alto was wonderfully lyrical and the soprano had a wonderfully crystal clear tone. Truly one of the more enjoyable concert grands I have played recently and a world class piano for someone, at less than half the cost of the Steinway or the Bösendorfer! If I had the room and unlimited financial resources I would have snagged it! If anyone is looking for a wonderful Baldwin SD-10, here’s your chance...


Jason Solomonides
Mason & Hamlin 7' BB 93623
Yamaha 6'1" C3 (w/WNG) D3010008
My Piano Recordings:
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Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
wolfgangmeister #2724448 03/26/18 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfgangmeister
I am just returning from a trip to visit an old friend and colleague of mine in Laguna Niguel, CA and had the great privilege of visiting with Mr. Robert Estrin at Living Pianos in Santa Ana, CA. Very fun place to visit. Mr. Estrin is knowledgeable and welcoming. I visited and played his many vintage instruments for 2 1/2 hours, playing a wonderful 1967 Steinway D 9’ Concert Grand in his new performance and recording studio, a crystalline 1963 Bösendorfer 290 9’6 Imperial Grand, some very nice older Bluthner, Schimmel, Ronisch, Mason & Hamlin instruments and an very nice new 2017 Hailun 178. But there was one instrument there without peer, right beside the Bösendorfer Imperial... the very same 1975 Baldwin 9’ SD-10 referred to above. The Renner action was buttery smooth, quick and expressive, the bass was as big and powerful as the Steinway (and bigger than the Imperial), the tenor very singing and expressive, the alto was wonderfully lyrical and the soprano had a wonderfully crystal clear tone. Truly one of the more enjoyable concert grands I have played recently and a world class piano for someone, at less than half the cost of the Steinway or the Bösendorfer! If I had the room and unlimited financial resources I would have snagged it! If anyone is looking for a wonderful Baldwin SD-10, here’s your chance...


Dear Jason,
Again, we share the same feelings about exceptional sounding grandpianos: Mason&Hamlin BB for 7’, and Baldwin SD10 for 9’ !!


Piano.Brazil
1987 Baldwin SD10, 2013 Mason&Hamlin BB, 2007 Euterpe/Bechstein 160, 1924 Hoepfner Upright
Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2724543 03/26/18 08:42 PM
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Glad to hear that the SD10 is indeed a piano to be reckoned with.

The SD10 in North Carolina did not work out. To make a long story short, we found another SD10 (1973) who was owned by a retiring music professor teaching at a local college in South Dakota. The piano is not perfect but it has been well cared for. The RPT informed that the soundboard is excellent (no crack) and the piano is generally very clean and cabinet in good shape. Due to its age, it can benefit from new hammers, shanks, flanges, key rebushing, etc. There is indeed some minor crack at the last section of the treble bridge. We got it at a very good price. The piano was picked up by Modern Piano today and scheduled for delivery in less than 4 weeks. It costs $2,700 to move it from South Dakota to New Hampshire. Keyboard Carriage does not provide any service there and other movers are all >$3K.

I will post some pictures when the piano arrives. The RPT (also rebuilder) informed me that the bridge crack is minor and repairable. He can do it for $750 but I thought I should see it first. I have been doing some reading on bridge repair using epoxy. I am reasonably handy and I did the majority of the finish work of my house. I may just be able to do this epoxy repair myself if it does not need recapping the bridge.

Will post some pictures when it arrives.

Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2724560 03/26/18 10:34 PM
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The placement of the bridge pins relative to the bridge notches, as well as discerning the correct “side bearing” angle is of critical importance to the tone and ability to tune the piano to a high standard.

I would never do this myself, the first time, on an instrument I cared about or had high expectations. On a junker, just to learn how to do it...sure. I’d hire someone who has done it many dozens of times, and had to follow up by servicing the same pianos, to see how things went (and learn from that experience to do an even better job, next time).


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Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2733409 05/01/18 10:48 PM
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The piano has arrived. I have pictures but could not upload as the file sizes are > 2.8MB.

The cabinet is in excellent condition. The soundboard is great (no visible crack). The hammers show some use but not sure if they need to be replaced right away. Maybe some filing will do for now. The piano has very good sustain when I play the middle C. The dampers are shot. I have had good success with replacing the dampers in my Steinway O, albeit took me so many hours to get things correct. It is trial and error effort - and did tax my perseverance. So, I am going to replace the dampers first. I noticed that there are trichord with wound strings. Do I need special trichord felts for wound strings?

As the RPT wrote - there is very very minor crack on the bridge around the last octave, visible to the eye if I use a camera to zoom on it. I am not sure if it is a delamination of the vertical pliers of the wood. The crack is almost hairline thick and localized. The rest of the bridge is in excellent condition. I bought West System 105 & 209 for the bridge repair and blunt syringes. I am still reading and preparing the steps that I need to do to use the West System. I do hear false beats around the notes of the last octave but when I single out a note and go through string by string (of the trichord), with screw driver to hold on the pin, the false beat did not go away. I am not sure that it is because of a moving pin.

How is it compared to the O? My son right away prefers to play the SD10. About the sound (in current conditions) - if the O can have the bass of the SD - then it is about equally match to my ears.

Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2733416 05/01/18 11:13 PM
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Pianos with sustain problems usually manifest themselves in the octave or two above middle C, for what it’s worth. The lower half is typically far less problematic.

Why are you attempting the bridge repair DIY? You need to get the placement and side bearing just right, uniformly across all notes of the unisons, otherwise it won’t tune cleanly (or at least to a high standard). Have you restrung a piano before?

Since you mentioned the dampers are toast, I’m assuming you’re going to need to hire a tech anyway. To try and regulate a set of dampers without a bunch of experience and some mentorship would be madness... it will result in a piano that doesn’t perform well.


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Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2733419 05/01/18 11:24 PM
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Not sure where I said that the piano has sustain problem. On the other hand, the SD has excellent sustain on the middle C - slightly better than my O.

My damper work on the O has been well. Reserve your sarcastic comment until when I have RPT come to tune it the next time and comment on it. The world does not need such angry attitude.

Re: Which 9' Baldwin is SD-10
Bagong #2733434 05/02/18 02:56 AM
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I was typing the last response on an iPhone and did not see (due to weird page formatting and forum behavior) that I had posted a similar reply to this thread over a month ago; for that, I apologize

I don't have an angry attitude, and the posting was not sarcastic, it was my honest opinion. I am always concerned that students get to regularly practice on pianos that won't hinder their development, because of something malfunctioning. Malfunctioning pianos can cause the sort of frustration that makes people (at all levels) practice less. My opinions are based on many years of experience as a piano teacher, festival and competition adjudicator, professor of music, professional pianist, and a quickly growing body of knowledge on the technical side of the instrument, in addition to what I get to see of various rebuilders' work through my association with the Piano Buyer (which takes me into piano shops and rebuilding facilities all over the place).


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